Shute Shield 2012

[wamberal]

Go the Woods.

 

[the coach]

I absolutely love the comment highlighted above Coach... Manipulation, interesting choice of words.

Here's some facts that you may not be aware of.

• The ARU asked the SRU to shorten the season.
• The top 6/bottom 6 structure that is in place for 2012, was in fact, a Randwick proposal.
• The proposal was supported by all clubs who attended the meeting to put the recommendation to SRU
• The only club who did not attend was my club, Manly.

But let's continue with the manipulation theory.....

Can you elaborate on who you are referring to as the manipulators. I would be very interested to hear your theory.
As for Parramatta and West Harbour having a chance to participate in play offs, I agree, its fantastic. But dare I say it, in Parramatta's case, they are currently 6th and would have made the playoffs under 2011's structure anyway. It would be Easts and West Harbour who would miss it if the top 6 was determined right this very minute.

I have to say, I am a supporter of the structure for this year. I am probably the only person in my club who would say that, but what they hey, I like it. And what do I like best about it? I like the fact that the games are all reasonably tight this time of the year. It will be interesting to see how tomorrow goes, particularly as Uni have Jeremy Tilse, Ben McCalman, Dave Dennis, Tim Davidson, Nic Stirzaker, Tom Carter, Mitch Inman and Tom Kingston all starting together for the first time this year. But there has not been any of the 90-10 floggings this year that clubs have been subjected too in the past. And thats great as far as I'm concerned. It shows that the structure is even and must be working.

What I think we as the rugby public need to focus on is the spreading of the talent. The beauty of the NRL is that each year, up to 6 or so sides are a genuine chance of winning the comp, and in any match, any side can win. The Shute Shield needs to get to that sort of level playing field I believe. Because then, and only then, will the Shute Shield be the premier club rugby competition in the country

You're taking the word "manipulation" out of context.
I'm not implying that anyone is doing anything untoward.
My concern is that the teams in the bottom 6 have an unfair advantage over the teams who have performed well across grades and colts and then find themselves having to play their remaining games against the other top sides whilst the teams in the bottom 6 don't have to play any of the top sides. As an example, when the teams were split my team, Randwick, had only won one game. And yet had they then won their remaining games against the other bottom group members they would possibly have made the playoffs. Explain to me how that would be fair.
I don't care who suggested the format or who agreed with it, I'm expressing my opinion which is surely what this forum is for.
I'm glad you agree with me that the main issue should be spreading the talent, but I can't see how this format will have any influence on achieving that goal.
The NRL achieve this by the salary cap.
I still believe the points cap can be made to work, but some of the exemptions need to be removed so that clubs like Uni are forced to shed some of their players to other clubs. Crazy to see S15 players coming off the bench or playing 2nd grade when they should be playing at Penrith etc.

 

[I like to watch]

The points system should be used to restrict registrations,not run on sides. Let Uni have the pick of the crop but restrict how many stars they are able to register.
Having returning Super players in reserve grade because you have the monopoly is ridiculous.

 

[the coach]

The points system should be used to restrict registrations,not run on sides. Let Uni have the pick of the crop but restrict how many stars they are able to register.
Having returning Super players in reserve grade because you have the monopoly is ridiculous.

Good idea Arch!
Why don't we go a step further and introduce a draft like the AFL so that the clubs finishing at the bottom of the table have first choice of the players that clubs like Uni have to let go.

 

[Done that]

Good idea Arch!
Why don't we go a step further and introduce a draft like the AFL so that the clubs finishing at the bottom of the table have first choice of the players that clubs like Uni have to let go.

You cannot introduce a draft system as all players are not under contract , others are only semi professional .Hence the governing bodies in Rugby Union don't have the control
over players that the AFL has over theirs , & aren't entitled to direct players where they must play.
The "points system" obviously also has limitations , as it currently stands , in it's ability to restrict/direct player movements .

 

[Bruce Ross]

Good idea Arch!
Why don't we go a step further and introduce a draft like the AFL so that the clubs finishing at the bottom of the table have first choice of the players that clubs like Uni have to let go.

Why hasn't someone thought of this before? It would be a wonderful way of strengthening and building the competition - the Subbies competition that is.

 

[Tahboy]

Good call Bruce, spot on

 

[the coach]

Why hasn't someone thought of this before? It would be a wonderful way of strengthening and building the competition - the Subbies competition that is.

And the reason why nothing ever changes and we keep moaning about the talent all being concentrated in a few clubs is that there are always knockers who quickly find reasons for doing nothing!

 

[Bruce Ross]

And the reason why nothing ever changes and we keep moaning about the talent all being concentrated in a few clubs is that there are always knockers who quickly find reasons for doing nothing!

As well as the "knockers [like me] who quickly find reasons for doing nothing" there are those who post suggestions without appearing to have given any thought to the unintended consequences of what they are advocating.
.

 

[Blackers13]

As well as the "knockers [like me] who quickly find reasons for doing nothing" there are those who post suggestions without appearing to have given any thought to the unintended consequences of what they are advocating.
.

To paraphrase JFK: " there are risks and costs with any course of action, but they are nothing compared to the risks and costs of comforatble in-action". The SRU top 8 is an action that has generated renewed interest which in the long term can only be good. Exploring other ideas for the development of the game and the equitable distribution of talent also is good for the game. This forum allows people to throw around ideas, let's not bag them, but instead tweak, hone and improve them. Positive discussion about change is how it begins.

 

[barbarian]

Guys Bruce was raising a fairly valid point about the idea of a draft. Frankly I agree with it, telling a young boy from the North Shore he has to play for Parramatta (and vice-versa) is a recipe for disaster, especially when there is no financial incentive.

He may have been a little dismissive, but that doesn't mean he is completely opposed to any action as some have concluded.
.

 

[I like to watch]

He may have been a little dismissive, but that doesn't mean he is completely opposed to any action as some have concluded.
.

It doesn't mean he is not completely opposed either.
He seems resistant to most ideas that might limit SU's predatory behaviour.

 

[Lindommer]

.....telling a young boy from the North Shore he has to play for Parramatta (and vice-versa) is a recipe for disaster, especially when there is no financial incentive.

Totally agree, b, and we should also discourage young boys from Parramatta and the Hills District from playing on the North Shore, or the eastern suburbs.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[the coach]

Totally agree, b, and we should also discourage young boys from Parramatta and the Hills District from playing on the North Shore, or the eastern suburbs.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Lindommer, you've hit the nail on the head. The risks associated with telling Uni players (for example) that they have to go and play somewhere else are not the issue. The issue is to stop the better resourced clubs from poaching players from the likes of Penrith etc. My club (Randwick) has been guilty of that over the years and it's a major problem in trying to spread the talent. I don't accept that the SRU cannot enforce a draft system simply because the players aren't contracted. This could be done (if there was a genuine will to do so) by applying Arch's registration suggestion. In the short term we don't have to tell players where to play; we just need to tell them that they cannot register with Uni. I don't accept that this will drive players to Subbies as that would impact on their ability to pick up a S15 contract. (PS: Before everyone jumps on me I'm only using Uni as an example. There are other clubs who just as guilty.)

 

[Blackers13]

Totally agree, b, and we should also discourage young boys from Parramatta and the Hills District from playing on the North Shore, or the eastern suburbs.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I tend to agree that a draft would be difficult to put in place, mainly because plyers aren't centrally contracted. The answer is in development. If Parramatta and Penrith (to choose 2) have the facilities, fringe benefits and coaching that is available elsewhere, they will attract and retain their local talent. All assistance should be given to these clubs to provide those oportunities, not only for their survival, but the code's survival in western Sydney. Due to a number of reasons, those clubs simply do not have the cash to support it on their own. A separate, audited fund, accessable by all clubs subject to qualifying criteria, to develop juniors-to-colts programs, might be a workable idea?

 

[wamberal]

Many years ago both our code and league tried to enforce residential qualification at the club level. It didn't work then, and it wouldn't work now.


All that would be achieved would be to drive good kids away from the code.

 

[barbarian]

Ryan you have hit the nail on the head. The solution is building up these Western Sydney clubs so they are attractive to good young players from those regions, not placing barriers in front of them playing for the top clubs.

Now how you do that is a whole new issue, requiring the $$$ and intelligence that the administrators of our game seem to lack.
.

 

[I like to watch]

Great in theory.
So theoretically, what do you do when a current colts player is approached by a wealthier club and made an offer of free accommodation, should he happen to go to a University that is quite close to the Club's training facility the following year?

 

[barbarian]

Great in theory.
So theoretically, what do you do when a current colts player is approached by a wealthier club and made an offer of free accommodation, should he happen to go to a University that is quite close to the Club's training facility the following year?

Well you try and make that decision as hard as possible by having said Colt in a great environment, winning games, having fun etc. They may choose the other club, but that is just the way it goes.

I throw the question back to you- what if said player decides he wants to go to Uni, as it is convenient for his study and lifestyle. Are you going to say he can't do it?
.

 

[I like to watch]

The $20k or so in free board helps his decision a tad though doesn't it?
Theoretically........