Shute Shield 2012

[barbarian]

The $20k or so in free board helps his decision a tad though doesn't it?
Theoretically....

Yes. It's a hard situation. And also it's not like these offers are being handed out like candy, raping and pillaging the clubs west of Newtown. The Colts comp is still very competitive.

I am not a Uni man, nor am I in denial about the scope and severity of the issue at hand. But I do argue that forcing players towards certain clubs and away from others is not the way to solve the problem.

BTW you still didn't answer my question.
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[It is what it is]

Not only are Club players not centrally contracted, the vast majority aren't paid either.
In fact this vast majority pay to play rugby via a registration fee.
Most of the ones being paid don't exactly make big bucks and sending these players to clubs not of their choice is just wrong.
The points system at least brings some sense of order among the grades.

 

[I like to watch]

I throw the question back to you- what if said player decides he wants to go to Uni, as it is convenient for his study and lifestyle. Are you going to say he can't do it?
.

I would say that if the player was a Schoolboy rep player then no.
I mean lets cut the bullshit, if they thought he would move without incentive, then they would not offer an incentive, would they?
Theoretically.......

 

[Bruce Ross]

A vital rule of combat is to know your enemy.

The task of other clubs in knocking Sydney Uni off its perch is made much more difficult if they take at face value the recurrent absurd misrepresentation of its recruitment process. Whether the disinformation arises because of ignorance, stupidity or malice the effect can be the same. Sometimes it appears to be a combination of all three.
.

 

[barbarian]

I would say that if the player was a Schoolboy rep player then no.
I mean lets cut the bullshit, if they thought he would move without incentive, then they would not offer an incentive, would they?
Theoretically...

Incentive comes in many forms ILTW. You seem to think the only reason anyone plays for uni is because they are lavished with scholarships, cash and personalised messages from Bruce Ross. This clearly isn't the case (well except for the messages from Bruce, I can't confirm or deny that particular program).

But let's not make this Uni Bash thread #302.

So you would only stop the player if he was a Schoolboy rep? So there is a double standard involved as well as a restriction of movement. Don't get me wrong I know your intentions are good but I think there are better ways of achieving what we both want to achieve.
.

 

[the coach]

We shouldn't turn this into an anti Uni discussion. For a team that was struggling some years ago they've done a great job of exploiting the resources available to them to build strength right through the grades and colts and have obviously provided a lot of players to the S15 competition. However, having such a concentration of talent in the one club is not good for the Shute Shield, as declining crowds over the last several years would confirm. I can remember a GF at Concord between Randwick and Uni when the place was packed. In recent years there's been only a couple of thousand (including the players and their dogs) at the GF. However Uni recruit players I say good luck to them. However, it's not a level playing field and we need to find a way of spreading the talent. I still think Arch's suggestion of applying the points to registration rather than the on-field team is worth further consideration, but the method of allocating points also needs to be reviewed. As several people have suggested, it's unfair to force a player to leave a club where he's made friends and settled in so the answer has got to be to stop him going there in the first place.

 

[Blackers13]

I would say that if the player was a Schoolboy rep player then no.
I mean lets cut the bullshit, if they thought he would move without incentive, then they would not offer an incentive, would they?
Theoretically...

I'd like to see stats on the number of junior 'superstars' who've gone on and played 10 years of grade or Super rugby, VERSUS the number of ordinary club or school players who have achieved beyond juniors or Colts. It's also not always about a Uni degree. Parramatta is building relationships with TAFE and apprentice networks and their major sponsor is assisting in players getting their RSA and RSG tickets and given time they will be a very competitive alternative in the Colts market. The thought being if you can have a viable career opportunity AND play in the area you grew up in with your mates, then you are more likely to stay loyal.

 

[Blackers13]

A vital rule of combat is to know your enemy.

The task of other clubs in knocking Sydney Uni off its perch is made much more difficult if they take at face value the recurrent absurd misrepresentation of its recruitment process. Whether the disinformation arises because of ignorance, stupidity or malice the effect can be the same. Sometimes it appears to be a combination of all three.
.

There are kids running around in Uni 3rd grade Colts (or Manly or Eastwood for that matter) who would walk into Parramatta 1st grade Colts, so why don't they go there? The answer, for now, is obvious. Let's face it, kids are attracted to Uni because they are the best. Best performing, best program, best coaching, great tradition and you are rubbing shoulders with internationals every week. Rather than knock Uni, effort should be made to bring everyone else up the their standard. It wasn't that long ago Uni were where Parra has just been but they had the time, cash and resources to grow to what they are. I fear that Rugby doesn't have that time and most clubs don't have those resources, so a concerted effort from the ARU needs to be made to assist struggling clubs to make themselves attractive to the best local juniors.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

.....snip...
Rather than knock Uni, effort should be made to bring everyone else up the their standard. ....snip.

Agree entirely. Clubs need to get off their buttocks and start to emulate the uni "success" related to S&C, coaching development programmes and academies, mateship etc. None of these things are unique to Uni.

While it is difficult to compete with the perception that kids get favourable treatment at the University with respect to preferential entry and easier marking, I think you will find that that particular perception is exactly that. Not every rugby player is after a degree on the sly anyway. Access to TAFE, apprentiseships and job opportunities can be organised through any well connected premiership club.

Rubbing shoulders with Internationals and S15 players. Hard to compete against that, but over time that may change as clubs recruit and retain "rockstar" players.

The Cargo Cult mentality that the ARU is the panacea and will do everything necessary to grow the game and help "struggling" Sydney clubs is a fallacy, and anyone waiting for this will be waiting a long time. ARU does not have the funds to do this.

Parramatta have recognised this and by all accounts GM Bell and Coach Christini have commenced to put in place measures like this at the 2 Blues, and this will pay off in the medium term. Others are copying or attempting to copy to a degree. It has to start at the grass roots.

 

[barbarian]

Gordon is beginning a formal alliance with UTS starting next year. Will be interesting to see what they provide each other.

 

[wamberal]

Rather than knock Uni, effort should be made to bring everyone else up the their standard. It wasn't that long ago Uni were where Parra has just been but they had the time, cash and resources to grow to what they are. I fear that Rugby doesn't have that time and most clubs don't have those resources, so a concerted effort from the ARU needs to be made to assist struggling clubs to make themselves attractive to the best local juniors.

Yes, Uni have the time, cash, and resources, plus a number of other advantages that a club like Parramatta will never, ever have. That goes without saying. Privilege begets privilege. But it was not always thus.


Back when things worked better, most of the Uni players were actually students. When they graduated, some actually went and played for clubs like Parramatta. They actually played for the love of the game. What we see now, on display at the Pigsty, is self-love writ large.


They don't care about the game, they only care about themselves.

 

[Dave Beat]

Yes, Uni have the time, cash, and resources, plus a number of other advantages that a club like Parramatta will never, ever have. That goes without saying. Privilege begets privilege. But it was not always thus.


Back when things worked better, most of the Uni players were actually students. When they graduated, some actually went and played for clubs like Parramatta. They actually played for the love of the game. What we see now, on display at the Pigsty, is self-love writ large.


They don't care about the game, they only care about themselves.

But Wamberal it tastes so sweet when we beat them, they do have the edge and you are right they can offer things other clubs can't "but" they have set an example that other clubs can strive for.

Eastwood have beaten them in their last 3 starts, if they continue do we bag Eastwood?

Parra are heading in a good direction, they have a maturing U17 side, and a good coach.

As for Penrith - Dirty Reds should still be there, I recall they fielded 3 colts sides, and 5 grade teams.

 

[wamberal]

I grew up in Eastwood, just a few hundred metres from the old ground near the railway station and went to watch them get beaten pretty much every Saturday as a kid, when they were building their new ground I walked out there to pick up stones from the paddock that became the main pitch along with dozens of others, I played juniors, and we got beaten far more often than we won, until finally, in the 1960s, I played for the team that won our first ever premiership. Third grade. We did not win a first grade premiership until 1999. But we kept plugging along.

My cousin is virtually full-time there as a volunteer, and another mate puts in a few hours every week.

But I honestly do not care whether we win or lose, and some of my favourite ever games, as a player or spectator, were against Parramatta. Especially back in the days when players like Rod Phelps (ex Sydney University) played for them. Those were the days when, as I said earlier, the University club operated as it should, as a club for the students. That is enough advantage for any single club. When the students graduate, they should go out into the real world, and play for real district clubs, and do their bit to grow the game that has been so good to them.

Eastwood almost went broke a few years ago, but survived, partly through the sponsorship of North Ryde RSL Club. Plus, of course, we have the advantage of owning our own home ground (or is it a disadvantage - I am not sure how the financials work out).

I don't think we have any particular advantages as a club, no doubt the tide will run out, as it has in the past, for a few years, before turning yet again.

 

[the coach]

I grew up in Eastwood, just a few hundred metres from the old ground near the railway station and went to watch them get beaten pretty much every Saturday as a kid, when they were building their new ground I walked out there to pick up stones from the paddock that became the main pitch along with dozens of others, I played juniors, and we got beaten far more often than we won, until finally, in the 1960s, I played for the team that won our first ever premiership. Third grade. We did not win a first grade premiership until 1999. But we kept plugging along.

My cousin is virtually full-time there as a volunteer, and another mate puts in a few hours every week.

But I honestly do not care whether we win or lose, and some of my favourite ever games, as a player or spectator, were against Parramatta. Especially back in the days when players like Rod Phelps (ex Sydney University) played for them. Those were the days when, as I said earlier, the University club operated as it should, as a club for the students. That is enough advantage for any single club. When the students graduate, they should go out into the real world, and play for real district clubs, and do their bit to grow the game that has been so good to them.

Eastwood almost went broke a few years ago, but survived, partly through the sponsorship of North Ryde RSL Club. Plus, of course, we have the advantage of owning our own home ground (or is it a disadvantage - I am not sure how the financials work out).

I don't think we have any particular advantages as a club, no doubt the tide will run out, as it has in the past, for a few years, before turning yet again.

But then the game went professional and players could (legally) be paid, which meant that the clubs with the best resources could attract the best players ie those with a chance of picking up a Super contract or a contract overseas. Unfortunately at grass roots level only a few clubs seem to have the resources to take advantage of the professional era. For the average club player nothing had changed.

 

[Done that]

To those people who equate playing for Sydney Uni with gaining degrees , you should know that anyone can play for Uni , i.e you don't have to be a student to play
for the University Rugby club .This is in contrast to days gone by when one had to be attending Sydney Uni as a student there to play for them.One could also play
for them for one year following graduation.Sydney Uni Rugby club is now simply that , a Rugby club.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Further to Done That, I know of several Sydney Uni Students who are decent rugby players (not superstars but solid toilers who are absolute rugby fanatics) who play colts for the clubs they have always been associated with.

It has never crossed their mind that they should play for the institution they are being educated in.

Despite being full members of SUSF, and enjoing the use of the facilities that membership of such provides, on Grand Final day they won't be barracking for Uni.

They do not feel any ill will towards those playing for Uni Colts, that do not attend Uni.
It is also an interesting observation that the old "imports took my place in the firsts" argument sometimes heard from some in the Sydney Schools Associations is not an issue with them.

 

[wamberal]

District clubs are at the frontline of development of the code, surely. Private schools have always been here, and the game has not exactly thrived on the back of that advantage. Having a strong Sydney University "club" means diddley-squat in real terms, as far as expansion is concerned.


If we want to grow - maybe, if we just want to survive - we just have to have strong district clubs.



If NSW Rugby is serious about survival - let alone growth - they need to require the Waratahs to ask Super Rugby players to play for district club, as part of their contract. Exemptions could be granted to players who are doing genuine full-time degrees - subject to the circumstances.



According to the Eastwood newsletter, the Student Corporation had 12 Super Rugby players on the field last weekend. Count 'em. Twelve. Great work, guys, you are killing the game.

 

[MACCA]

WADE KELLY appointed coach of Randwick for 2013.
Does anyone know whether how capable he is?
He was coach of Scots College before this.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^^^^
4th coach in 4 years from the Wicks.

Is Stephen Hoiles still Coaching Director?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Further to Done That, I know of several Sydney Uni Students who are decent rugby players (not superstars but solid toilers who are absolute rugby fanatics) who play colts for the clubs they have always been associated with.

It has never crossed their mind that they should play for the institution they are being educated in.

Despite being full members of SUSF, and enjoing the use of the facilities that membership of such provides, on Grand Final day they won't be barracking for Uni.

They do not feel any ill will towards those playing for Uni Colts, that do not attend Uni.
It is also an interesting observation that the old "imports took my place in the firsts" argument sometimes heard from some in the Sydney Schools Associations is not an issue with them.

As a matter of interest how many non uni students play colts at Sydney uni?


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