Quade Cooper going to NRL?

[Gnostic]

neither higginbotham or beale in the mix?

I knew I'd forgotten a few, I'm sure there are more. My point is that things are not that bad with players even if he goes and with the retirments and losses to Euroland expected. In fact with a decent game plan and skills coaching things could be a hell of a lot better than they are now.

Edit:- Updated the original squad posting.

 

[Gnostic]

RH - the only issue I have with your argument is that the same arguments were made about Giteau and since he signed the mega deal with the ARU his game has been in steady decline to the point where most of us agree he is a stretch to make the 22 on merit. The biggest difference is that Cooper has proved less in Rugby than Giteau did prior to that mega deal. IMO any huge sums thrown at Cooper also devalues the deals of the hard grafters in the pigs who the success or loss can be based upon. Players like TPN (who does so much more for Rugby at all levels than QC (Quade Cooper) has ever done), Robinson, Alexander and Pocock. Without them Cooper would have no chance to shine in Rugby. Do not throw the baby out so to speak just to keep another one happy.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

RH, I think you make a powerful argument. However, rugby games are not won by one player. The pack determines who wins footy games, the backs decide by how much. A key reason why we are losing more games than we'd like right now is that half of our good quality forwards are unavailable. So basically what we need to do is everything reasonable to keep QC (Quade Cooper), but not break the bank doing it. We need to keep our good young forwards in the the S15/Wallaby system and stave off the threat of NH money as much as we do with league and the backs.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

RH - the only issue I have with your argument is that the same arguments were made about Giteau and since he signed the mega deal with the ARU his game has been in steady decline to the point where most of us agree he is a stretch to make the 22 on merit. The biggest difference is that Cooper has proved less in Rugby than Giteau did prior to that mega deal. IMO any huge sums thrown at Cooper also devalues the deals of the hard grafters in the pigs who the success or loss can be based upon. Players like TPN (who does so much more for Rugby at all levels than QC (Quade Cooper) has ever done), Robinson, Alexander and Pocock. Without them Cooper would have no chance to shine in Rugby. Do not throw the baby out so to speak just to keep another one happy.

He was shining all season with the Reds without any of the players you mentioned and a, at the time, no name pack..

 

[Moses]

This is a major F*&%%$ up by the ARU. They should have had Cooper signed regardless of the court matters with a clause in the contract rendering it void if the matters were proven/found guilty and conviction recorded.

Quade had an offer from both the Force and a French club at the time, had the ARU stuck in a clause as you suggest Le Quade would have flown the coup without question

 

[H...]

I can't believe Giteau was ever thought to be worth anything like that. He must be the most overrated player in the history of the game.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

I can't believe Giteau was ever thought to be worth anything like that. He must be the most overrated player in the history of the game.

Giteau at 12 in his prime was great

 

[H...]

RH - the only issue I have with your argument is that the same arguments were made about Giteau and since he signed the mega deal with the ARU his game has been in steady decline to the point where most of us agree he is a stretch to make the 22 on merit. The biggest difference is that Cooper has proved less in Rugby than Giteau did prior to that mega deal. IMO any huge sums thrown at Cooper also devalues the deals of the hard grafters in the pigs who the success or loss can be based upon. Players like TPN (who does so much more for Rugby at all levels than QC (Quade Cooper) has ever done), Robinson, Alexander and Pocock. Without them Cooper would have no chance to shine in Rugby. Do not throw the baby out so to speak just to keep another one happy.

What did Giteau prove before that deal? That he was a standout super 14 player between one of the best 10s ever to play the game and one of the best 13s in a long time? That he was mediocre between the same two players when it really counted?

The ARU paid Giteau bank because they could market him as the next "Star" in the absence of anyone better qualified to take on that role. Unlike the kiwis and the jaaps, our admin feels the need to have a big, standout name in the side so they can sell the product to a non-rugby audience. Whether or not that player is any good on the paddock is more or less irrelevant, after you've been earmarked as a prodigy. Christ, James O'Connor is ALREADY being used to market the product.

 

[H...]

Giteau at 12 in his prime was great

Yeah, in the Super 14 and against NH teams, sure. Probably showed up against the Boks in Brisbane. What about when it counted?

 

[Gnostic]

Quade had an offer from both the Force and a French club at the time, had the ARU stuck in a clause as you suggest Le Quade would have flown the coup without question

If that was the case it is a forgone conclusion that he doesn't value playing for the Wallabies enough to sign such a contract (taking responsibility for his own actions in risking his future) and he is just as likely to leave now no matter what reasonable offer the ARU makes. If he had got a conviction would the French contract have stood, and would the NRL be offering the cash for another convicted player in their code?

The ARU stuck by Cooper when he could have reasonably sat out the S14, they offered mentoring etc etc etc and if he forgets all that less than 3 months down the track well goodbye and just remember after your playing days there are only so many media jobs the NRL can get ex-players.

 

[Groucho]

Another thing to remember is that the ARU has a budget for players. It wouldn't just be a slap in the face for the Robinsons and Naus of the world if Cooper got a huge cheque: it would very likely mean their next offer would be less than it would otherwise have been. All the Wallabies are competing for a slice of a finite pie.

 

[H...]

Another thing to remember is that the ARU has a budget for players. It wouldn't just be a slap in the face for the Robinsons and Naus of the world if Cooper got a huge cheque: it would very likely mean their next offer would be less than it would otherwise have been. All the Wallabies are competing for a slice of a finite pie.

True, though there will be a million bucks worth of Giteau money to distribute after 2011. If we can replace one overpaid playmaker (well...) with another who makes less, haven't we improved the books a little?

 

[Gnostic]

H as much as I don't think Giteau should even make the 22 now, in 2005-2007 he was perhaps the best 12 in the world. He did actually play well at 12 in tests. Nobody compares to Horan, but Giteau was as good as Grey (if a totally different game) and better than Kafer or Howard. He fully deserved a decent contract, just not being hailed as the next messiah and taking half the ARU budget. I have said many times that it is a great pity that Giteau will be remembered more for his failure as an international 10 than for his ability at 12. You do need to go and watch some games of Giteau before he was ruined playing at 10.

 

[H...]

H as much as I don't think Giteau should even make the 22 now, in 2005-2007 he was perhaps the best 12 in the world. He did actually play well at 12 in tests. Nobody compares to Horan, but Giteau was as good as Grey (if a totally different game) and better than Kafer or Howard. He fully deserved a decent contract, just not being hailed as the next messiah and taking half the ARU budget. I have said many times that it is a great pity that Giteau will be remembered more for his failure as an international 10 than for his ability at 12. You do need to go and watch some games of Giteau before he was ruined playing at 10.

I'm happy to admit that he was the best man for the job in that period. Any more than that and we'll have to agree to disagree, I think.

 

[vidiot]

Giteau at 12 in his prime was great

Only going back to the relatively recent past - latham, mortlock, larkham, gregan, tune in their prime were great. Giteau in my head is the guy who didn't ever quite be as good as I thought he could be. And isn't in that company.

The wallabies back line without Cooper is not up to scratch. That may change in the future, but even a hopeless optimist like me can't see To'omua dominating by next year, or Barnes/Giteau suddenly getting it. (Edit: sorry as 10)

The wallabies pack needs to be competitive, and can be, but we're not England. We won't win without having a functional backline in the big games.

 

[H...]

I think he could have been a great halfback. If Gregan had been given the flick after 2003 rather than 4 years later, Giteau could have gone to be the Captain and halfback for a long time.

 

[Lee Grant]

There's some good thinking on this thread.

But to be the Devils Advocate for a moment: let's look at the the consequences of his leaving our game and not being available for the Wallabies.

Let's face it: the Wallabies despite being in the top 4 usually, is not a lot different from other teams, except the All Blacks, who have strengths in most areas, especially in the top two inches, and not a lot of weaknesses.

The Boks are tougher physically but that didn't show recently; France had an often brilliant 6N all across the park, but we know how hot and cold they are - and they were cold in the RSA and Argentina recently. England have the best structure in their game, which is both good and bad.

Wales has similar strengths and weaknesses to us; and Ireland, without ROG, is so close to us in type that it doesn't matter.

What we have that is different from all these teams is the Genia/Cooper nexus. No one else has that. We haven't seen them against the All Blacks yet and they weren't that influential against England in Sydney, but it's the kind of combination that can win games that may otherwise be lost. It isn't that bad either if they are average since in that case they are scarcely worse than any other 9/10 we can come up with.

Let's try to keep Cooper by going a little further than may be proper.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think it's a bit historically revisionist to suggest that Giteau wasn't a great 12 in the past. IMHO he most certainly was. The fact that he had Larkham and Mortlock in the back line clearly helped, but the bloke was no mug. In hindsight, what didn't help him was the shift to 10, but once again, who was shouting the place down for someone else in that position? Not me, given that there were no other outstanding 5/8's in the mix. The dual playmaker setup with Barnes made sense in 2008, even if it makes less sense now.

 

[H...]

If anyone can reel off any great performances against the other 3N teams, I'll go back and watch them. Not interested in what he's done against Japan or in June though.

 

[RugbyReg]

Players like TPN (who does so much more for Rugby at all levels than QC (Quade Cooper) has ever done), .

In saying that no one does as much for club footy as TPN. At the same time, Quade is pretty bloody prominent. He does love to play club footy and has probably played more of it over the last year than a lot of regular Wallabies. He goes down to Jnr footy too. Usually to watch his brothers, but I know when he went to watch his bro v my nephew's team he came and spent time with my nephew's team both at half time and full time, signing puh-lenty of autographs and having photos. The kids love him.