Paddy O'Brien apologises just not to Australia

[Mojoman]

I doubt it's that clear cut. I really don't think Paddy would have gone out on a limb and said those things without the IRB's express approval. He's committing career suicide if thats the case.

 

[mark_s]

Myself find it very odd for Paddy going to the coach of the All Blacks and apologizing.

Thats the point I am struggling with - I have no idea whether Dickenson was right or not on the weekend and frankly I don't care. What I care about is why Paddy, having considered Dickenson's performance to be sufficiently below par, decided to give both a public rebuke and an apology to All Black management when he has been noticeably silent on poor officiating in the past.

 

[Biffo]

Myself find it very odd for Paddy going to the coach of the All Blacks and apologizing.

Thats the point I am struggling with - I have no idea whether Dickenson was right or not on the weekend and frankly I don't care. What I care about is why Paddy, having considered Dickenson's performance to be sufficiently below par, decided to give both a public rebuke and an apology to All Black management when he has been noticeably silent on poor officiating in the past and two days later.

Agree?

 

[PaarlBok]

Myself find it very odd for Paddy going to the coach of the All Blacks and apologizing.

Thats the point I am struggling with - I have no idea whether Dickenson was right or not on the weekend and frankly I don't care. What I care about is why Paddy, having considered Dickenson's performance to be sufficiently below par, decided to give both a public rebuke and an apology to All Black management when he has been noticeably silent on poor officiating in the past.

Well turn the clock not to long agao and Snor complaining over the same scrumming issue, well Mr Paddy went to the press the opposite root. Snor had to make a appointment with him, now its the All Blacks and his home country, he contact them, vokken ridicilous if you ask me.

Fire the bastard and give it to Andre Watson, at least he do a professional job in SA regarding reffing issues.

 

[Biffo]

Myself find it very odd for Paddy going to the coach of the All Blacks and apologizing.

Thats the point I am struggling with - I have no idea whether Dickenson was right or not on the weekend and frankly I don't care. What I care about is why Paddy, having considered Dickenson's performance to be sufficiently below par, decided to give both a public rebuke and an apology to All Black management when he has been noticeably silent on poor officiating in the past.

Well turn the clock not to long agao and Snor complaining over the same scrumming issue, well Mr Paddy went to the press the opposite root. Snor had to make a appointment with him, now its the All Blacks and his home country, he contact them, vokken ridicilous if you ask me.

Fire the bastard and give it to Andre Watson, at least he do a professional job in SA regarding reffing issues.

Great suggestion, PB. Andre Watson was one of the best-ever referees and has done a superb job in developing refereeing in RSA.

How good was Watson? He got a RWC final in about his tenth international game. Refereed two RWC finals. Great record.

 

[Biffo]

Mr Kaplan has the gig for England v NZ on Saturday. His assistant referees are Mr A. Lewis and Mr S. McDowell.

Is Mr Kaplan nervous? Has he chatted with Paddy? Will Paddy be in attendance?

 

[chief]

What Watson is doing with SA referees isn't so good. His rankings are certainly unique, with Kaplan being number 1 and Marius Jonker being number 2 ranked for 2010. A bit strange I think as Jonker's international days are slowly ending. I think we should let the referee assessors bag out the referees. I'm biased by all means but Andrew Cole would certainly be a pick for the job. He did well getting Walsh to Australia. Peter Marshall too he was a good referee he probably would have got the 99 WC final if Australia was not in it. As Watson was relatively inexperienced at the time. But Watson should certainly indeed be picking the IRB panels, and have a say on who referees each match.

 

[PaarlBok]

What Watson is doing with SA referees isn't so good. His rankings are certainly unique, with Kaplan being number 1 and Marius Jonker being number 2 ranked for 2010. A bit strange I think as Jonker's international days are slowly ending. I think we should let the referee assessors bag out the referees. I'm biased by all means but Andrew Cole would certainly be a pick for the job. He did well getting Walsh to Australia. Peter Marshall too he was a good referee he probably would have got the 99 WC final if Australia was not in it. As Watson was relatively inexperienced at the time. But Watson should certainly indeed be picking the IRB panels, and have a say on who referees each match.

Well what I see here from Watson in the press and the development work he do regarding reffing is quite outstanding in my books. One thing I like about him is that he never shy away from critics and will give his honest opinion on TV or in the press regarding reffing. Trust me you wont get more crictical supporters on refs like in SA, remember Piet van Zyl?

The other thing I like about Watson is that he'll never shy from trying to get the best product out there. Trying and experimenting new laws or structures that can help assist reffing. Definetly innovative and not the conservative old school type of thinker.

 

[chief]

That's a good point. He was all for the ELV's and definitely was keen for them to be trialled. He certainly doesn't. I do think its interesting what he's doing with the rankings however.

 

[PaarlBok]

Well he went futher then just ELV's. Did some invotation things in the Varsity Cup like trying the white card where the captain of a team can ask the TMO to have a look at things like a forward pass or maybe a cheap shot since the last play. Myself liked that one.

This year they will play with 23 match day players and the no uncontested scums law.

SARugby.net

André Watson, South African Rugby's manager of referees, told varsitycup.co.za: "This ruling still needs to be ratified, officially, at a meeting on Monday, but hopefully - if all goes well - we will get the green light for eight-man benches in the 2010 Varsity Cup.

"Not having uncontested scrums will only benefit the game of rugby union and we're thankful that the Varsity Cup have allowed us the possibility of experimenting with this concept."

Of course, the Varsity Cup is no stranger to testing new concepts under Watson's - and SA Rugby's - watchful eye.

The 2008 tournament saw the introduction of white cards - a ruling which allowed the captains to question one of the referee's on-field decisions in the final, via a time-out - and it allowed Watson and co. to see if that concept had any future in the game.

"The Varsity Cup is a great competition in so many ways," added Watson, "they're always open for suggestions and it's a great level of competition to test new concepts (like this).

"The best thing about an eight-man bench is that it basically rules out uncontested scrums, whilst - at the same time - it doesn't limit the coaches' options when it comes to the rest of his replacements.

"We will follow this experiment closely and do a full study on it - based on how it transpires in the 2010 competition, the reaction of the players and coaches and, of course the referees."

Varsity Cup Managing Director Duitser Bosman, meanwhile, gave his full support to the experiment.

"Uncontested scrums are not what you want in rugby," said Bosman to varsitycup.co.za. "(And) that memorable second Test between the Springboks and the Lions was a good case in point...

"It was probably the most physical game of rugby seen in recent years, yet they had uncontested scrums in the last 20 minutes which meant the teams were able to take off their tired props and replace them with fresher, more mobile forwards... (and) that led to more collisions and, thereby, some serious injuries.

"Having an extra prop on the bench will mean fewer, if any, uncontested scrums and that would be a best-case scenario for the game."

 

[Biffo]

I really like watching Watson on TV explaining things to fellow panellists and the viewers. The man seems so confident in his own knowledge and abilities (but certainly not arrogant) that he can travel to the beat of his own drum. In the extremely "politicized" world of rugby administration that is a great attribute.

 

[PaarlBok]

This is what SARugby.net our official website have to say about the scrumming debacle

Law Discussion: Scrums
Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:22

Recently the International Rugby Board ran a course at Lensbury in London for top referees and referee managers from top countries. They resolved to get scrumming right.

They decided that there were too many collapsed scrums - dangerous for players and drab for spectators.

Present was the great refereeing statistician, Corris Thomas, the former international referee. He was able to tell the meeting that scrums now took an average of 49 seconds, as against 33 seconds in 2006, There is an average of 18 scrums per match with an average of 10 resets per match.. That means that in 80 minutes of match 14 minutes 42 seconds are taken up with getting the ball into and out of a scrum, which is 9 minutes 54 seconds. That means that - as an average - scrumming in top matches in 2009 is taking 4 minutes 48 seconds longer than it did in 2006.

Time is not added on for what happens at scrums.

On the IRB's instructions the assembled referees noted things they were to look for (all 17 of them) and they discussed ways of solving the problems of the scrum and agreed on actions to take.

They then went forth and refereed.

The six matches came up with the following statistics:

France vs South Africa: 17 scrums - 0 reset, 4 collapses 2 free kicks 2 penalties
Wales vs Samoa: 19 scrums - 8 resets, 3 free kicks, 1 penalty. (One scrum was reset four times.)
England vs Argentina: 18 scrums - 7 resets, 8 collapses, 3 free kicks, 1 penalty
Scotland vs Fiji: 19 scrums - 9 resets, 4 collapses, 3 free kicks, 1 penalty
Ireland vs Australia: 14 scrums - 7 resets, 5 collapses, 2 free kicks, 2 penalties
Italy vs New Zealand: 25 scrums - 16 resets, 20 collapses, 1 free kick, 7 penalties.

Total: 102 scrums, 55 resets - 54%

Previously: 18 scrums, 10 resets - 56%

The improvement is not great but then it is that one match which destroys the average - Italy vs New Zealand and it is even worse when one considers that not one New Zealand scrum was reset or collapsed or incurred a free kick or a penalty.

The stats for Italian scrums were: 16 scrums - 16 resets, 17 collapses, 1 free kick, 7 penalties.

16 scrums - 16 resets = 100%.

That's not great.

Packing in the Italian front row was Martín Castrogiovanni, already a legend for his scrumming ability. Mind you, he was standing on the touch-line when the big crunch came.

During the week Castrogiovanni had played prop for a Leicester Tigers team against a South African touring team. Same prop, same referee. It was bad but not as bad as what happened in Milan:

11 scrums - 6 resets, 4 collapses, 5 penalties.

In the match between Italy and New Zealand in Milan, Italy laid siege to the New Zealand line, starting with a five-metre line-out in New Zealand's left corner. The Italians stayed there for just under 13 minutes.

It started with two five-metre line-outs which were followed by seven five-metre scrums. They went like this:

Scrum 1 - reset, penalty for offside
Scrum 2 - collapse, reset, collapse, penalty and a warning
Scrum 3 - collapse, reset, collapse, penalty and a yellow card
Scrum 4 - penalty as the scrum went up
Scrum 5 - collapse, reset
Scrum 6 - collapse, reset, collapse but the ball came out for a penalty
Scrum 7 - collapse but the ball came out till play was unplayable.

Pity the referee. It must have been a nightmare.

He did not opt out but acted. He gave a yellow card to Neemia Tialata who was penalised four times at the scrum in the match. That meant the return of Wyatt Crockett and the departure of Liam Messam to reduce the All Blacks to 14 men. but the next scrum was penalised as Crockett went up.

What was the referee to do?

Should he then send Crockett off to the sin bin, reducing the game to uncontested scrums and robbing Italy of their main weapon?

It is clear that we are still a long way from having "proper" scrums. Is it because of over-regulation?

a Very interesting link for reffing detail and where you can ask anything regarding the issue

http://www.sareferees.co.za/home/

 

[PaarlBok]

I really like watching Watson on TV explaining things to fellow panellists and the viewers. The man seems so confident in his own knowledge and abilities (but certainly not arrogant) that he can travel to the beat of his own drum. In the extremely "politicized" world of rugby administration that is a great attribute.

Boots and All our weekly rugby TV show often use Andre and asking straight questions and he sure will analize it with the TV pictures on slomos and give his opinion. The man know his job and you know SA have a ref academy runned by Freek Burger. Also one of our very best x refs. Their scholars are used often in our schoolbot games and must say some young guns going through their ranks.

Our schoolboy and CC rugby is a robust and physical type of game played in sometimes hot enviroments and the perfect structure for any ref to get to exposed to.

 

[chief]

Yeah I hear you guys have TMO's for school games over there? Or was that just another rumour that I seem to hear?

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

A few things to add... PB, I'm sure if PdV had gone through the proper channels to speak to Paddy then he would have had the opportunity to air his grievances and maybe Paddy would look into it. Although PdV is certainly having the last laugh now, you cannot forget the outrageous comments he made earlier this year regarding many things, including Burger's eye gouge. Did he expect to then go whinging to the media and the IRB to follow up actively? I don't think so.

Rember too that given the way that Paddy has recently told kiwi's to grow up and beeing pretty much so anti anything NZ, I have no doubt that he did NOT do this off his own bat.

Andre Watson was truly a great ref and the obvious successor to Paddy. Vast majority of his tv stuff is insightful and interesting, however all of it that I have seen has always gone pro SA, or SA got screwed. Maybe a co-incidence, maybe not.

Lastly, no idea which way the blame goes here, but when there are 26 scrums in a match, and going one way, there is not one single reset, and goig the other there is 100% resets, it's quite clear there is a serious problem. Either NZ used negative, penalty inducing tactics or Paddy was right to criticise Dickinson. Regardless of which way it was, the 13 minutes the Italians spent camped on our line was a blight on the game, and not the sort of action to induce more punters through the gates from rugby developing countries. I'm obviously biased, but why was NZ able to clear their ball 100% of the times with no problems and Italy 0%?

 

[PaarlBok]

Well I saw Watson many times critizing the SA lot. He is in charge of SA's refs and I have seen him often making no bones in either defending the refs desicion or saying the wrong desicion was made, often contacting the province coach and settle the mistake.

Regarding the All Blacks Italy test I have a huge problem him going to the Cartell and apologizing. Thats just stupid and wrong. He should have done the same thing he did with Snor. They settled the issue in the end having a good conversation behind closed doors.

What about the ref of the match, the guy that is suppose to report to him? Bet you it dont go down well.

 

[PaarlBok]

Yeah I hear you guys have TMO's for school games over there? Or was that just another rumour that I seem to hear?

I dunno about that one. They dont televised school matches live, monday nights they'll give us the highlights of the big FNB Classic matches but cant remember them using TMO's for them.

 

[PaarlBok]

Freek Burgers Ref Academy link

http://www.refereesacademy.co.za/

 

[Scotty]

I don't know enough about scrums to comment on the Italy vs NZ issue, but if what NTA said is correct, then surely the IRB and Paddy will be shown up as a complete joke for taking this action. It makes no sense to do what they have done.

Lastly, no idea which way the blame goes here, but when there are 26 scrums in a match, and going one way, there is not one single reset, and goig the other there is 100% resets, it's quite clear there is a serious problem. Either NZ used negative, penalty inducing tactics or Paddy was right to criticise Dickinson. Regardless of which way it was, the 13 minutes the Italians spent camped on our line was a blight on the game, and not the sort of action to induce more punters through the gates from rugby developing countries. I'm obviously biased, but why was NZ able to clear their ball 100% of the times with no problems and Italy 0%?

Funny, it would seem that the ABs are in the right by the fact they are able to clear their own ball, but it also happened this year against the Wallabies in a few of their matches. The Boks and ABs were pretty even come scrum time over in SA, then the Aussies gave the SA scrum a touch up. Strangely enough when it came to the Sydney AB vs Wallaby game, I think the ABs might have shaded it, and the Wallabies did have some issues (particularly early if I recall correctly) in clearing their own ball. Now some of that I am sure was the ABs doing things like not taking the hit and trying to milk penalties.

 

[Pfitzy]

Well technically if the THP bores on the LHP, he's "boring out"