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Paddy O'Brien apologises just not to Australia

Should Paddy O'Brien step down?

  • Yes and he can take Kaplan with him

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, he's doing a good job

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Warn him

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
TheRiddler said:
Bif and PB

Where on earth did you get the idea I was a Kiwi? Actually a Pom that's been in Sydney for 10 Years and now a full blown Aussie citizen.

And I wasnt criticising Mr Watson, just stating the irony that a man that copped such a huge bagging over his refereeing of the scrums in the 2003 RWC final is now being seen as the answer to this latest scrum fiasco. I was actually at the final, proudly wearing my green and gold, much to the chagrin of the english army para sat next to me that bought my kiwi mate's ticket for a stupid amount of money. I'm sure he was about to smack me for being a traitor until he realised that the Poms had actually won, at which stage I was last seen heading out of the stadium with tears in my eyes, disconsolate with Australia's loss.

G'day. PB suggested you were a kiwi. I just followed. :)

Great to learn you are True Blue.

Mr Watson has given a totally conclusive explanation for the scrum penalties in RWC 2003 final. I am very pleased that Australians, after winning in 1999, went no further with Mr Watson over the eye gauging cases in that final - and the video evidence then was irrefutable. We showed some class.

I watched RWC 2003 final in Polokwane (formerly Pietersburg) in North Transvaal, among 150 huge Afrikaaners screaming for England. Defines irrationality, doesn't it?
 
C

chief

Guest
And in another twist-

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/11/20/sports/sports-uk-rugby-australia.html?_r=1

MELBOURNE (Reuters) - The Australian Rugby Union has complained to the International Rugby Board about criticism of one its referees by the IRB's referee manager, Paddy O'Brien.

O'Brien was quoted in media reports this week criticising Australian referee Stuart Dickinson for erroneously penalising the All Blacks in the scrum during their 20-6 win over Italy in Milan Saturday.

O'Brien also visited the touring All Blacks' hotel in London to apologise for the referee's performance, British media reported.

"ARU wishes to express its considerable surprise at these developments," the governing body said in a statement on Friday.

"We expect to see this transparent approach adopted on a consistent basis for all elite referees in the future.

"Also, the ARU thinks that the criticism of Dickinson, the leading referee in Australia for a number of years, was lacking in balance."

The ARU said it would be happy to discuss the findings of its own analysis with O'Brien.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
I am quite happy with this response. Not overly confrontational, just a simple expression of surprise, raising the issue of consistency. Just looked on rugbyheaven and their article is the same except with this quote from the ARU- "The analysis of scrums is an inexact science and the ARU is happy to discuss the findings of its own analysis with Mr O'Brien."

Your move, Paddy.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
And Wayne Smith's views.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...ery-even-to-refs/story-e6frg7mf-1225800855234

Scrum laws a mystery even to refs
by Wayne Smith From: The Australian November 21, 2009 12:00AM Increase Text Size Decrease Text Size Print Email Share Add to Digg Add to del.icio.us Add to Facebook Add to Kwoff Add to Myspace Add to Newsvine What are these?
IF nothing else, the public dressing down of Australian referee Stu Dickinson by his IRB boss Paddy O'Brien has laid bare just how much is wrong with rugby.

Let's deal first with the lesser issue of O'Brien's disgraceful humiliation of one of the game's senior international referees. It is almost unheard of for the IRB, through its director of elite referees, to issue a public statement criticising the performance of a Test whistleblower. But O'Brien didn't just professionally critique Dickinson's handling of last weekend's Italy-All Blacks Test. He went way beyond that, savaging it in a way that was deliberately offensive, virtually guaranteed to undermine Dickinson's credibility with the players and, worst of all, almost certainly inaccurate.

According to O'Brien, Dickinson needed to be sent off for "scrum coaching" after getting it wrong in seven of the eight scrums packed in the last 10 minutes of the Milan Test as the Azzurri attempted to bludgeon their way over from the set piece.

"The best example I can use is in the last 10 minutes there were eight scrums of which seven the tighthead for Italy is purely illegal," O'Brien said in his statement. "Up here (in Europe) they're crying that it should have been a penalty try (to Italy). It should have been a penalty first scrum to the All Blacks.

"We've got to be fair to teams. If the referee is not accurate, we've got to put our hand up. We need to educate that referee and get him better because that scrummaging on Saturday was not up to international standard."

Yeah, well neither was O'Brien's statement. Had it been more even-handed, it might also have acknowledged that in one scrum, the All Blacks loosehead stood up as the Italian pack drove forward and rode up on to the Italian tighthead. The All Blacks loosehead's actions were excuse enough for Dickinson to have awarded Italy a penalty try.

We could debate all day exactly what happened but there is first the question of the appropriateness of O'Brien, a New Zealander, making a grovelling pilgrimage to the All Blacks' London hotel.

There he reassured head coach Graham Henry and his staff that they were right in their accusation that Dickinson had been "guessing" in his scrum rulings.

O'Brien might not be aware of this but there is widespread concern among international coaches about the IRB's use of All Blacks' scrum guru Mike Cron to advise referees about the latest shenanigans frontrowers are getting up to in the set piece. It's probably only a perception thing, but the IRB and its referees need to be totally above suspicion. The fact that he himself is a Kiwi should have made O'Brien doubly aware of appearances.

Arguably, O'Brien felt compelled to make an example of Dickinson because just three days before the Milan Test, the IRB's top referees and referee managers had gathered in London to discuss, among other things, the vexed issue of collapsed scrums and resets.

And certainly this is an area worth targeting given that the IRB's own research indicates that there are an average of 18 scrums and as many collapses and resets in every Test, which means that 16 per cent of the game time is consumed by the scrum. On a bad day, it climbs to 25 per cent.

Let's reflect on that for a moment . . . on average, nearly 13 minutes of every Test is devoted to scrummaging, rising to 20 minutes when things really turn ugly.

But wait . . . what else was it that the referees and managers discussed during their think tank? Oh yes, the issue of illegal tackles in open play.

Again, had O'Brien been even-handed, he would have castigated not only Dickinson but also Jonathan Kaplan, the South African referee who handled the Australia-Ireland match in Dublin the following day.

After all, Kaplan made what was clearly the wrong decision in sending Wycliff Palu to the sin bin for a shoulder charge on Irish fullback Rob Kearney when it was obvious he had used his arms in the tackle. But then, a little later, Kaplan studiously ignored half a dozen replays on the big screen at Croke Park that showed Kearney himself shoulder-charging Rocky Elsom in a bid to stop him from scoring in the corner.

So why has O'Brien not paid a visit to the Wallabies at their Edinburgh hotel to beg forgiveness of Robbie Deans and Palu for two mistakes that, unlike any Dickinson made, almost certainly changed the outcome of the match?

Yet what is scariest about all of this has nothing to do with the individuals caught up in it.

Putting aside O'Brien and Dickinson, here we have a situation where the head of the game's international refereeing panel, himself a long-time Test referee, is accusing a referee who has officiated in three World Cups and controlled almost 50 Tests, of guessing in his scrum rulings.

If O'Brien is right, Dickinson made the wrong decision in seven scrums out of eight at the death in Milan. Even if O'Brien is only half-right, that's still an appalling statistic. It actually confirms what the Wallabies for years have believed, that scrum rulings went against them not because they necessarily had been doing anything wrong but because referees felt obliged to do something about repeated collapses and it was an easy out to pin the blame on the supposedly weaker pack.

But it goes even wider and deeper than that. If two of the most experienced referees in the history of the game view the same scrums completely differently, then surely the laws of the game are simply too messy.

Is it any wonder rugby is Australia is losing fans who once would have considered themselves as rusted-on to the code? Too many Tests are decided on penalty kicks and too many penalties are simply arbitrary and, as often as not, could just as easily have been awarded to the other side.

What the starting point might be in solving this problem is itself a matter for debate. Myself, I think it should start with an apology to Dickinson.

Unfortunately, O'Brien, Kevin Rudd is all sorried-out. You might need to handle this apology yourself.

I wasn't aware Mike Cron was an adviser to the refs as well as to the ABs. That is bad form (again) from Paddy. Has anyone said Paddy should walk or be fired? To my mind, there are no other options. He has actually crossed a very important line. In rugby, the ref should be above criticism. He should not be above review and should be accountable, but that review should be conducted independently, documented and released 3-6 months later when emotions have cooled.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
One thing I remember about Paddy and scrums was the match between France and Fiji in the 1999 RWC.

He just lost patience with all the resets and decided that a penalty try against Fiji was the way to go but there was no evidence that they were at fault anymore than France were. He also disallowed a legitimate try to the Fijians. He single handedly robbed the Fijians of going to the finals IIRR.

He admitted later that he blundered but, like the admission of another Kiwi, Bryce Lawrence - who told Phil Vickery after the 1st Lions test this year, sorry but after watching replays I realise I was wrong - I don't give him a lot of credit.

Perhaps the demons of that 1999 RWC match have been resident in Paddy's soul for 10 years and needed exorcism.

It's the only explanation for his poor form in criticising Dicko publicly.

And as others have mentioned: why wasn't Joubert censured for repeatedly penalising Baxter? He has virtually ruined his career.
 
C

chief

Guest
I really wouldn't be surprised if this constant media attention causes Paddy to stand down, we'll see who referees dodgy in the next few games and see if they get an apology win or lose.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
Haven't slept a wink all week thinking about this issue. Let's have a good look at the entrails of this incident. Here's a sequence of events:

  • Italy play NZ in Milan, with an Australian referee, Stuart Dickinson
  • NZ lead by 14 late in the game when Italy get a number of scrums 5m from NZ's goal-line
  • there are 8 scrum resets, some say NZ at fault, others say Italy
  • Graham Henry (NZ coach) furious about the fact NZ are penalised for improper scrum practice, he considers Italy to be at fault
  • NZ player, Tialata tweets Graham Henry (NZ coach) will meet with Paddy O'Brien (a NZer), the iRB referees' manager, when NZ arrive in London
  • NZ coach meets with iRB referees' manager (a NZer) in front of a NZ journalist, Marc Hinton
  • In an unprecedented action Paddy O'Brien (a NZer), the iRB referees' manager, publicly criticises the Australian referee's performance with Graham Henry (the NZ coach) in front of Marc Hinton, a NZ journalist, advising him Dickinson was wrong in his rulings over the final scrums and will be given some training to remedy those incorrect rulings
  • NZ journalist reports meeting on NZ website, Stuff
  • NZ rugby supporters go ballistic

I've looked at this incident back-to-front and upside-down (and even inside-out) for a common thread and buggered if I can find one. I must confess I'm at a complete loss as to what we should now do.
 
C

chief

Guest
If consistency not shown this week then I'm sure the IRB might have to look into this.

I think Stu could certainly be up for some money, and could probably sue the IRB, if he ends his career on a note like this. Because Paddy O'Brien has embarrassed himself I hope.
 
C

chief

Guest
And in another twist. He's undermined Stuart Dickinson's reputation. An apology sometimes isn't good enough. The ARU should press this issue forward, because it is obviously an attack with a journalist present. ARU needs to move forward.

Story from sareferees.co.za

International Rugby Board Referee Manager Paddy O'Brien has issued an apology to Stuart Dickinson and the Australian Rugby Union for public comments he made regarding Dickinson’s officiating of the Italy vs New Zealand match on 14 November.

O'Brien’s comments followed a scheduled meeting with the New Zealand management at the team hotel in London on Tuesday and were regrettably made in discussion with media assembled at the same hotel for a team media session.

While such meetings with team management are regular practice, it is not IRB policy to publicly comment on refereeing appraisals or to discuss details of meetings held with team officials and all such feedback should be conducted via the appropriate channels.

“I have unreservedly apologised to Stuart Dickinson for the action of publicly discussing elements of his performance review and would like to extend that apology to the Australian Rugby Union," said O'Brien.

“A clear and confidential best practice protocol exists for match official appraisal and feedback involving all stakeholders and I regret breaching this protocol.

“The IRB has in place a dedicated High Performance structure for the development of international referees and works hard with its Member Unions to identify up and coming talent and promote consistency at all levels of the Game.

“Team management are also offered the opportunity to meet with the referee prior to a match or arrange a meeting with a performance reviewer or myself – this is normal practice.

“Again I would like to apologise to Stuart and the ARU for the public nature of the comments that I made," added O'Brien.

An IRB press release
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
O'Brien should be completely conversant with the iRB protocol reviewing referees' performances; if he's not, who is?

It's a bit late to save your career now, Paddy. I can't see how he can continue in his position.
 
C

chief

Guest
If he does stay its total injustice and will put to light the growing problems of rugby. He's had his time in the job, lets move to either Andre Watson, Dave McHugh, Peter Marshall or Donal Courtney.

I think its appropriate to add a poll too
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Fucking hell Paddy. Just jump on your sword and get it over with you mental old plod.

BTW I have no problem with Mike Cron schooling refs on the scrum. The man knows his trade. However there should be someone else like an ex-Argie or French prop involved to give it balance. That's the thing about a scrum - you need opposition to make it worthwhile :)
 
S

Spook

Guest
This is sweet. An apology isn't good enough - he has to go.

I am concerned about how PdV has now jumped on the bandwagon when he was actually dealt with correctly by the IRB. He'll only muddy the waters.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Lindommer said:
I've looked at this incident back-to-front and upside-down (and even inside-out) for a common thread and buggered if I can find one. I must confess I'm at a complete loss as to what we should now do.

The comical part is they think they were hard done by. It was the Italians who were robbed. Stu should have awarded a penalty try and dealt more cards than Star City.
 
S

Spook

Guest
Castrogiovanni was killing the Kiwis in the scrum for most of the match. He was actually off the pitch during the scrums shown above.
 

Lindommer

Simon Poidevin (60)
Staff member
The ARU's public comment on POB's fuckup was a delightful piece of writing, concise and understated but got the message across it was mightily pissed off. I suspect the formal, private, complaint to the iRB, will be much longer and more strident in its content. A review of POB's position beckons.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Part 1
Scrum 1 - AB prop (Tialata?) bores straight in after his arm hit the ground. No questions.
Worth noting here the ABs do that little Canterbury trick of going down to hold last.
Scrum 2 - I reckon this one on the replay shows both props at it. Tialata's binding is crap though.
Scrum 3 - Tialata drops his bind again - his back hasn't been straight on a single engage. THen he just drops into the deck
Scrum 4 - Definitely Tialata boring in. The Italian's feet are off the deck FFS!
Scrum 5 - Tialata's body position just isn't good enough. He's been a THP for a long time now, so no surprise there - the Italian THP might have his shoulders a little lower than his hips, but he's able to hold himself up while Tialata at LHP can't, which is pretty damning as LHP is meant to hold the whole thing up on that side. The other thing to note about Tialata is he packs with his feet level (like a THP) when he's at loosehead. A lot of blokes I know on the left side of the scrum put their outside (left) foot forward slightly. Makes it easier to stay up, and then after the hit you can move it if you've got a second to breathe

The first scrum and the last scrum show that Tialata wasn't concentrating. However, the middle scrums aren't really an issue with Tialata - its just that the tight head side of the AB scrum doesn't have the power to hold the Italians, or push them back like Tialata's side does. No surprises there as Afoa isn't prime propping beef. They would have no worse off if they'd put Tialata at THP and let Afoa just try a holding pattern at LHP. They certainly didn't have the personnel to push the Italians around in this case.

Part 2
Couple of resets for the ABs standing up - under pressure
Scrum 1 - Dickinson is right. No penalty try because they didn't look like they were going to score.
Scrum 2 - Stu is right again. That one was a bit of a mess - the ABs are walking around the corner, but the Italians aren't going anywhere.
Scrum 3 - Crockett straight down. Sorry, its penalty try time there.

The most frustrating thing is the cameras didn't look at each engagement.

The next most frustrating thing is you know if that was a Wallaby or Scottish scrum, the ref would have awarded a penalty try after scrum 4 or 5. But the ABs seem to have a blessed existence in this regard.
 
C

chief

Guest
http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_5708497,00.html

With Planet-Rugby jumping on the Paddy O'Brien resignation bandwagon, surely that must put pressure on him to retire, or for the IRB to sack him. Surely we'll see what the next few weeks hold. Hopefully a referee really badly performs this week, and the coach asks for O'Brien for an apology, and if he diesn't give it to them, he's gone. Paddy really did fuck up this time.
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
chief said:
http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_5708497,00.html

With Planet-Rugby jumping on the Paddy O'Brien resignation bandwagon, surely that must put pressure on him to retire, or for the IRB to sack him. Surely we'll see what the next few weeks hold. Hopefully a referee really badly performs this week, and the coach asks for O'Brien for an apology, and if he diesn't give it to them, he's gone. Paddy really did fuck up this time.

Why wait? What's wrong with going Kaplan for last Saturday?
 
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