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NSW U16 Trial Games and Selections 2011

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D

Dingdong

Guest
This tour will be a good opportunity for that - and same sentiments DD! I was looking at your suggested run on team for NSW Country and imagining how this would work based on your idea of "NSW Country Origin"! The current team is a great bunch, we have both commented on how they have stepped up - but imagine if they had Sandell, Hawkins, Jono Hardy, Pennisi, Davis, Crossley, Jennings, Delore ( all from last years U/15's Cockatoo's! ) to fit in! That would be a dilemna any coach would love!

Yeh....... but you know what, those boys not being there offers a great oppertunity to other boys. I've been thinking about the country origin thing and have an idea how it could work. Still working on it..... but maybe along the lines of a country origin v country team to select a team to take to nationals. Ths could happen at the regionals and be totally independant to the country teams programme. In other words, the country team selected at Myuna bay after the country champs would stay together and complete the programme, except the national. The team selected from regionals would come together only for the nationals. The benifit of this would be that it would take all the country origin players out of the schools team and add strength to the country team at nationals. What do you think ?
 
M

magpie4ever

Guest
Gentlemen,

It is my intention to now provide you with my (long winded) solution to help bring a cessation to the hostilities in this room ... lmao ... jeez you go away for a week and the bedlem breaks out! Here goes!

Approximately 5 or 6 years ago I was attending a school football game between two school teams, it was a game I dubbed ‘The Battle of the West’. It was between Granville Boys HS v. Westfield Sports HS. At the time I think GBHS had one player in the Australian School’s team and Westfield had 3-4 players (correct me if I wrong here gentlemen). Notwithstanding the bone crunching spectacle I seen that day (in fact the physicality of the match put the fear of God into me), what was important for the current topic here was the man I got to speak with. It was definitely one of the Ella brothers (but not Mark). Given that he was thin I have always assumed it was Gary i spoke with. As it stood I was never going to ask if he was Gary. Heaven forbid, I was talking to Australian rugby royalty and I was not going to offend the man with my ignorance (I will presume that all know of Gary Ella).

In the 5-10 minute conversation I had with Gary I asked for his thoughts on Australian rugby, in particular how could Australia avoid the peaks and troughs that teams like NZ and SA are generally able to avoid? According to Gary Australian rugby, unlike NZ and SA, lacked the necessary depth. He then pointed to the game we were watching and said we need to give these boys a fairer go! When he elaborated on his statement he said that most of the boys we were watching needed sustained and regular exposure to stronger competition. In other words schools such as the ones mentioned above needed to play against rugby specialist schools such as those in the GPS and CAS associations on a regular basis. In fact this is what occurs in New Zealand!

To exemplify what I am saying please read the following extract pertaining the ‘POWERHOUSE’ Auckland province. From my understanding it was written in 2007 by John Mackenzie who was commissioned by the English RFU to assess the Australian and New Zealand systems for schoolboy rugby talent identification. The article is titled, ‘Talent Identification in Australia and New Zealand and a Potential Way Forward for Schools’ Rugby Here’. the extract states:
“In the Auckland region of New Zealand the top twelve schools play each other in the A Grade, with twenty four teams involved in the B Grade in a further two pools of twelve teams. There is promotion and relegation at the end of each season, with a mix of State and Independent schools in each league. At the start of the season each school is asked to nominate its top five players to a central database that is co-ordinated by the schools’ development department at Auckland Rugby. After each league fixture the coaches nominate players from the opposition schools who stood out in their fixtures; their names are added to the database. When it comes to the time for selecting Regional sides to play in the Auckland Championships, the coaches effectively decide how many players in each position they want for their squad and then take the ranking players from the database. There are no trials or development days to influence the list of players, as the selected players are taken directly from the information submitted by the respected coaches on a weekly basis. The squads that are finalised play in the Auckland Provincial Championships, with the potential to be selected to represent Auckland in the National Championships Festival against Canterbury, Wellington, etc, from which the All Blacks U18s are selected. This process, again, does not clash with school fixtures in any way, taking place during the half-term holidays.”

What are your thoughts gentlemen? When responding please bear in mind that the above article has neglected to mention that club teams are also included in the abovementioned competitions. Ultimately I find it very intriguing (and enticing) that club and school teams could play in the same competition; playing each other week in, week out; better still having one peak body overseeing the selection of a representative team.

As it stands Auckland provincial rugby is very strong, moreover Sydney is becoming strikingly similar to Auckland (the actual city) with its large and growing Polynesian communities in south-western and western Sydney. In Auckland the same communities are largely in south Auckland (especially in Manukau).

Regards,
Newbie.

Two (maybe three) issues, I can see with the suggested idea for Sydney region. They are:

- would the rugby schools (GPS, CAS & ISA) play in such a comp.
- the diocese catholic schools are league only, with a one round union comp in term 3 (14 & 16s), only played after the league comp finishes, how do you break that association with league.
- weekend footie is club dominant & league dominant.
 
D

Dingdong

Guest
Gentlemen,

It is my intention to now provide you with my (long winded) solution to help bring a cessation to the hostilities in this room ... lmao ... jeez you go away for a week and the bedlem breaks out! Here goes!

Approximately 5 or 6 years ago I was attending a school football game between two school teams, it was a game I dubbed ‘The Battle of the West’. It was between Granville Boys HS v. Westfield Sports HS. At the time I think GBHS had one player in the Australian School’s team and Westfield had 3-4 players (correct me if I wrong here gentlemen). Notwithstanding the bone crunching spectacle I seen that day (in fact the physicality of the match put the fear of God into me), what was important for the current topic here was the man I got to speak with. It was definitely one of the Ella brothers (but not Mark). Given that he was thin I have always assumed it was Gary i spoke with. As it stood I was never going to ask if he was Gary. Heaven forbid, I was talking to Australian rugby royalty and I was not going to offend the man with my ignorance (I will presume that all know of Gary Ella).

In the 5-10 minute conversation I had with Gary I asked for his thoughts on Australian rugby, in particular how could Australia avoid the peaks and troughs that teams like NZ and SA are generally able to avoid? According to Gary Australian rugby, unlike NZ and SA, lacked the necessary depth. He then pointed to the game we were watching and said we need to give these boys a fairer go! When he elaborated on his statement he said that most of the boys we were watching needed sustained and regular exposure to stronger competition. In other words schools such as the ones mentioned above needed to play against rugby specialist schools such as those in the GPS and CAS associations on a regular basis. In fact this is what occurs in New Zealand!

To exemplify what I am saying please read the following extract pertaining the ‘POWERHOUSE’ Auckland province. From my understanding it was written in 2007 by John Mackenzie who was commissioned by the English RFU to assess the Australian and New Zealand systems for schoolboy rugby talent identification. The article is titled, ‘Talent Identification in Australia and New Zealand and a Potential Way Forward for Schools’ Rugby Here’. the extract states:
“In the Auckland region of New Zealand the top twelve schools play each other in the A Grade, with twenty four teams involved in the B Grade in a further two pools of twelve teams. There is promotion and relegation at the end of each season, with a mix of State and Independent schools in each league. At the start of the season each school is asked to nominate its top five players to a central database that is co-ordinated by the schools’ development department at Auckland Rugby. After each league fixture the coaches nominate players from the opposition schools who stood out in their fixtures; their names are added to the database. When it comes to the time for selecting Regional sides to play in the Auckland Championships, the coaches effectively decide how many players in each position they want for their squad and then take the ranking players from the database. There are no trials or development days to influence the list of players, as the selected players are taken directly from the information submitted by the respected coaches on a weekly basis. The squads that are finalised play in the Auckland Provincial Championships, with the potential to be selected to represent Auckland in the National Championships Festival against Canterbury, Wellington, etc, from which the All Blacks U18s are selected. This process, again, does not clash with school fixtures in any way, taking place during the half-term holidays.”

What are your thoughts gentlemen? When responding please bear in mind that the above article has neglected to mention that club teams are also included in the abovementioned competitions. Ultimately I find it very intriguing (and enticing) that club and school teams could play in the same competition; playing each other week in, week out; better still having one peak body overseeing the selection of a representative team.

As it stands Auckland provincial rugby is very strong, moreover Sydney is becoming strikingly similar to Auckland (the actual city) with its large and growing Polynesian communities in south-western and western Sydney. In Auckland the same communities are largely in south Auckland (especially in Manukau).

Regards,
Newbie.

That system works in NZ because EVERYONE is pulling in the same direction and ALL have the junior development of rugby as the common goal. The reality here in Australia is that rugby union is a minority code where league dominates. There are just too many people involved in the state schools who wouldn't let it happen. I hope I live long enough to see such a system in place here.
 

dermo

Larry Dwyer (12)
Gentlemen,

It is my intention to now provide you with my (long winded) solution to help bring a cessation to the hostilities in this room ... lmao ... jeez you go away for a week and the bedlem breaks out! Here goes!

Approximately 5 or 6 years ago I was attending a school football game between two school teams, it was a game I dubbed ‘The Battle of the West’. It was between Granville Boys HS v. Westfield Sports HS. At the time I think GBHS had one player in the Australian School’s team and Westfield had 3-4 players (correct me if I wrong here gentlemen). Notwithstanding the bone crunching spectacle I seen that day (in fact the physicality of the match put the fear of God into me), what was important for the current topic here was the man I got to speak with. It was definitely one of the Ella brothers (but not Mark). Given that he was thin I have always assumed it was Gary i spoke with. As it stood I was never going to ask if he was Gary. Heaven forbid, I was talking to Australian rugby royalty and I was not going to offend the man with my ignorance (I will presume that all know of Gary Ella).

In the 5-10 minute conversation I had with Gary I asked for his thoughts on Australian rugby, in particular how could Australia avoid the peaks and troughs that teams like NZ and SA are generally able to avoid? According to Gary Australian rugby, unlike NZ and SA, lacked the necessary depth. He then pointed to the game we were watching and said we need to give these boys a fairer go! When he elaborated on his statement he said that most of the boys we were watching needed sustained and regular exposure to stronger competition. In other words schools such as the ones mentioned above needed to play against rugby specialist schools such as those in the GPS and CAS associations on a regular basis. In fact this is what occurs in New Zealand!

To exemplify what I am saying please read the following extract pertaining the ‘POWERHOUSE’ Auckland province. From my understanding it was written in 2007 by John Mackenzie who was commissioned by the English RFU to assess the Australian and New Zealand systems for schoolboy rugby talent identification. The article is titled, ‘Talent Identification in Australia and New Zealand and a Potential Way Forward for Schools’ Rugby Here’. the extract states:
“In the Auckland region of New Zealand the top twelve schools play each other in the A Grade, with twenty four teams involved in the B Grade in a further two pools of twelve teams. There is promotion and relegation at the end of each season, with a mix of State and Independent schools in each league. At the start of the season each school is asked to nominate its top five players to a central database that is co-ordinated by the schools’ development department at Auckland Rugby. After each league fixture the coaches nominate players from the opposition schools who stood out in their fixtures; their names are added to the database. When it comes to the time for selecting Regional sides to play in the Auckland Championships, the coaches effectively decide how many players in each position they want for their squad and then take the ranking players from the database. There are no trials or development days to influence the list of players, as the selected players are taken directly from the information submitted by the respected coaches on a weekly basis. The squads that are finalised play in the Auckland Provincial Championships, with the potential to be selected to represent Auckland in the National Championships Festival against Canterbury, Wellington, etc, from which the All Blacks U18s are selected. This process, again, does not clash with school fixtures in any way, taking place during the half-term holidays.”

What are your thoughts gentlemen? When responding please bear in mind that the above article has neglected to mention that club teams are also included in the abovementioned competitions. Ultimately I find it very intriguing (and enticing) that club and school teams could play in the same competition; playing each other week in, week out; better still having one peak body overseeing the selection of a representative team.

As it stands Auckland provincial rugby is very strong, moreover Sydney is becoming strikingly similar to Auckland (the actual city) with its large and growing Polynesian communities in south-western and western Sydney. In Auckland the same communities are largely in south Auckland (especially in Manukau).

Regards,
Newbie.
Newbie, it is the dream of all schoolboy rugby followers to see a tiered schoolboy competition consisting of all independent and public schools, though with the politics involved in schoolboy footy we all no the chances of this happening are next to nothing.
 

Newbie

Bill McLean (32)
Ooops; I forgot my LMAO again!

HEADLINE: SJRU reward mediocrity.

CAS were the most totally under achieving side can't make it into schools so lets load them into the Sydney side!

Having said that there are also some very good selections.

How will J Clark handle the Schools two run away freight trains running his channel? Few sleepless nights there i think!


Very disapointing SJRU and you had the chance to get it right.

RT,

Sorry for posting this one in so late in the game, however I have just returned home from holidays and my ealier post needs clarity as it was sent from my iphone (which is hard to read sometimes). Nevertheless when I made the comment, 'awesome team' I forgot to add my LMAO onto the end of the sentence. I was actually wanting to include a hint of sarcasm! I could not agree with you more on this one!

My goodness I cannot believe the non-selection of Trent Winterstein, Iona Taiki, and the Baa Baa's Full-Back who was carving it up (his name escapes me presently). There was another lad from MSZ who I noticed playing well, he was the lock, tall boy (Titherton???) great jumper in the lineout who was able to secure/spoil on almost numerous occassions. Tenacious worker! Winterstien and Taiki are however the most unfortunate in my opinion!

Ironically coincidental that the SJRU coach also happens to be the Trinity coach as well! I am sorry but I have never seen such bias in my life (toward CAS boys who were clearly out-played by the boys I have selected above).

Regards,
Newbie
 

wreckless

Bob Loudon (25)
Yeh....... but you know what, those boys not being there offers a great oppertunity to other boys. I've been thinking about the country origin thing and have an idea how it could work. Still working on it..... but maybe along the lines of a country origin v country team to select a team to take to nationals. Ths could happen at the regionals and be totally independant to the country teams programme. In other words, the country team selected at Myuna bay after the country champs would stay together and complete the programme, except the national. The team selected from regionals would come together only for the nationals. The benifit of this would be that it would take all the country origin players out of the schools team and add strength to the country team at nationals. What do you think ?

Interesting ( and mouth watering! )! But who would have first call on the "origin" boys who are already in the system on the other pathway? Half of those I mentioned are already in the Schools squad. Most would - I reckon - resent being compelled to give up the Schools pathway.

There would be a school of thought that this may be to the detriment of the boys who ( for whatever reason ) are only able to go to Nationals via the Country pathway, and that others are getting 2 bites at the cherry if they weren't excluded.

Country will just have to keep rising to the occasion methinks! :)
 
M

magpie4ever

Guest
I know this will raise the ire of the raras but what the ARU is trying to do with the NTS, JGS & merit teams is a somewhat backdoor attack on league. Picking up some league players (say, between 14-17, the vital years) who also have an interest in union and trying to nurture them to take more of an interest in union without going toe to toe with league; but what the present school titles system does is send these boys straight back to league. Therefore, union remains to have a shallow base and will never compete on a consistent basis with NZ and SA.
 

Newbie

Bill McLean (32)
Newbie, it is the dream of all schoolboy rugby followers to see a tiered schoolboy competition consisting of all independent and public schools, though with the politics involved in schoolboy footy we all no the chances of this happening are next to nothing.

Dermo & DD,

What if the ARU bit the bullet and flexed a bit of muscle and proclaimed itself as the authority. Maybe there would be few years of turmoil, but given they are the peak body I am sure they could ride out the storm.

Hmmmmm???????

Regards,
Newbie.
 

Man on the hill

Alex Ross (28)
Dermo & DD,

What if the ARU bit the bullet and flexed a bit of muscle and proclaimed itself as the authority. Maybe there would be few years of turmoil, but given they are the peak body I am sure they could ride out the storm.

Hmmmmm???????

Regards,
Newbie.

Guys - you all bang on about who is in charge - there is no desire to change, no desire to give up any seats at the table - do yourself a big favor - read the garling report & the response / instruction from NSWRU - there is no desire at ANY level to change any of this!
& Newbie have a read of it / I'm not bring negative - as learned as you are - read Gatling, then read sun tzu - know your enemies to beat them. Whilst there are no enemies in this you have to understand the mindset of the decision makers ~ cheers MOTH
 
D

Dingdong

Guest
Interesting ( and mouth watering! )! But who would have first call on the "origin" boys who are already in the system on the other pathway? Half of those I mentioned are already in the Schools squad. Most would - I reckon - resent being compelled to give up the Schools pathway.

There would be a school of thought that this may be to the detriment of the boys who ( for whatever reason ) are only able to go to Nationals via the Country pathway, and that others are getting 2 bites at the cherry if they weren't excluded.

Country will just have to keep rising to the occasion methinks! :)

With my proposal every country origin player selected for schools would be put in the country origin team to compete at the regionals. If they miss selection in the country origin team for National they retain their spot in the Schools team. You would think that most (if not all) would make the country team, making available more oppertunities for schools players and having a country team at the nationals who would be a realistic chance of winning it. I'm sure there would be no resentment from the country boys in schools who get to go to nationals with the association that they have the most affinity with.
 

Newbie

Bill McLean (32)
Guys - you all bang on about who is in charge - there is no desire to change, no desire to give up any seats at the table - do yourself a big favor - read the garling report & the response / instruction from NSWRU - there is no desire at ANY level to change any of this!
& Newbie have a read of it / I'm not bring negative - as learned as you are - read Gatling, then read sun tzu - know your enemies to beat them. Whilst there are no enemies in this you have to understand the mindset of the decision makers ~ cheers MOTH

MOTH,

Have read the Garling Report (and you are very correct). I wonder if someone from the ARU (in 20-30 years time) will pick the same up and say, what were we thinking back then to disregard such a profound document!

With respect to Sun Tzu is that the same author of "Art of War"?

Regards,
Newbie.
 

dermo

Larry Dwyer (12)
Dermo & DD,

What if the ARU bit the bullet and flexed a bit of muscle and proclaimed itself as the authority. Maybe there would be few years of turmoil, but given they are the peak body I am sure they could ride out the storm.

Hmmmmm???????

Regards,
Newbie.
The shit storm that would be created from a decision like that...
 
M

magpie4ever

Guest
What and incur your wrath? No chance ... my name's Billy ... not Silly ... lmfao@Magpie!

Hey Magpie, what year did you play SGB for Wests?

Thought you would be more fearless my friend. It was a U15s comp then, in the 70s. A magpie doesn't give his age away or you might find out my real identity. :lmao:
 
M

magpie4ever

Guest
Thought you would be more fearless my friend. It was a U15s comp then, in the 70s. A magpie doesn't give his age away or you might find out my real identity. :lmao:

Wouldn't want DD to know that, he might send the sheepdog around.:p
 

Newbie

Bill McLean (32)
Dare to Dream!

The shit storm that would be created from a decision like that...

Admittedly; without a doubt! However (and this will identify the age of many in here) in 1977 or thereabouts, a man by the name of Kerry Packer took on the Australian Cricket Establishment and made history. During this era of reformation Australian Cricket did suffer, but only for a couple of years! I know this a loose analogy I have used however unlike Mr Packer at the time, the ARU here would coming from a position of authority (the association recognised by the IRB).

If the ARU were to come out and proclaim that they were now taking charge of the Australian junior rugby representative teams and their consequential selections, tell me which countries would defy such a proclamation and allow their school/junior teams to play a team selected by the ASRU. I would hazard a guess and say that NZ would probably not!

Ultimately there would be fierce resitance from GPS and CAS schools (and in QLD as well), however I could see the other associations coming on board very quickly. Eventually so would the others if they ever wanted to have offically recognised representative honours for their students again!

Its a dream gentlemen; and without them who are we, and how will we ever effect change? Alas it all starts with a dream!

Regards,
Newbie
 
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