NSW U16 Trial Games and Selections 2011

[TigersFan5]

No one in NSW will beat Finn on his day

That is quite a silly point if you think about it tzimmy. Anyone that is at a highstandard of rugby you could say about this. Example: No one will beat Tepai Morea on his day, No one will beat Oliver Kamp on his day, No one will beat Lachie Cannell on his day. Players at a high standard when they are on their day, are extremely hard to control. In saying this though, Finn must be a good footy player to be regarded as better potential than that of Clark and Degan.

 

[Casnovian]

(Hopefully this year, NSWJRU will have the appropriate shield to present to the winners !)

We have already this year's mishap at the regionals. Medals for 16s given to 15s (who finished 30 minutes earlier) so the MWZ had to give their 15s winners medals back after their photographs.

Help the wonderful job the long term NSWJRU officials - increase the regionals operational budget I say.

 

[kiwi playing in Oz]

No one in NSW will beat Finn on his day

Ur confident. Hope he goes well.

 

[no9]

No 9.... don't know where you get your info from but the mistakes are yours my friend. There have been ten U16 Nationals Championships held to date and NSW Schools U16s have won 6 of them.... that's right 6... their last being in 2009. I suggest that on that form the NSW Schools selectors are doing exceptionally well with their choices.

Sorry you are incapable of comprehending the message of my post. What I have been alluding to is that the real rugby (opens) has been dominated by Qld over the past few seasons as the selections at 16's level seem to transcend into the open ages without much change. The current NSW I's are showing the benefit of selecting from all the associations to find a balance of skill and mental aptitude that to date has not been forthcoming from the GPS heavily biased II's. If you only keep breeding from a shallow gene pool you end up rather disfunctional as is being seen at the higher levels. Therefore colleague, I respectfully suggest that the selectors are not doing as well as you suggest.

 

[Dingdong]

Sorry you are incapable of comprehending the message of my post. What I have been alluding to is that the real rugby (opens) has been dominated by Qld over the past few seasons as the selections at 16's level seem to transcend into the open ages without much change. The current NSW I's are showing the benefit of selecting from all the associations to find a balance of skill and mental aptitude that to date has not been forthcoming from the GPS heavily biased II's. If you only keep breeding from a shallow gene pool you end up rather disfunctional as is being seen at the higher levels. Therefore colleague, I respectfully suggest that the selectors are not doing as well as you suggest.

You think you have identified a problem with selections in this agegroup (I disagree) .....now the solution please mate !! NAMES, NAMES,NAMES. Who are these players we've all overlooked who could balance the ledger in "real rugby" next year. You clearly have a fair knowledge of this agegroup so out with it mate!!!

 

[no9]

Stop flapping ya gums no 9 and GIVE US THE NAMES! I'm really intrigued who you think was hard done by in regard to selections.

Dingaling,
This isn't about changing this years selections. This is about NSW schools rugby looking at balancing a system that is clearly becoming two tiered. Do you honestly believe that the game is going to prosper in this state let alone nationally if the keepers of higher honours are limited to 6 schools in one association and to a lesser extent 6 more in another. Look back at the previous posts and it becomes obvious which pools the major percentage of selections are coming from. This unfortunately is then propagated into the open squads like this year where 9 GPS II's players where picked, many of whom have limited 1st XV competition games experience. I know that this doesn't resonate with many of this threads contributers who believe all in rugby is about 16yr olds, but some logical analysis of the bigger picture shows why we struggle to compete on the highest levels consistently with NZ and SA.
Now we can all bury our heads in the sand and just leave it in the to hard basket or grass roots rugby can be rejuvenated and help lead us back from the wilderness. Ask yourself why nearly all age group club rugby is now played on a sunday? Perhaps due to self interest from the above mentioned and a lot of people have just decided to get on board rather than fight it.
Others within this thread have shown through their dialouge that they also believe we have a flawed system and have spoken out in their dismay. As someone wisely said in another thread "Don't blame the players, blame the selectors who put them there".

 

[dermo]

Dingaling,
This isn't about changing this years selections. This is about NSW schools rugby looking at balancing a system that is clearly becoming two tiered. Do you honestly believe that the game is going to prosper in this state let alone nationally if the keepers of higher honours are limited to 6 schools in one association and to a lesser extent 6 more in another.

But why do we need to change the system if we have won 6/10 national champs?

 

[no9]

But why do we need to change the system if we have won 6/10 national champs?

The gene pool is quickly shrinking. Kiwi, Tragic and others, I wish you luck in battling with the dark forces of the deniers of the obvious.

 

[dermo]

The gene pool is quickly shrinking. Kiwi, Tragic and others, I wish you luck in battling with the dark forces of the deniers of the obvious.

With the most amount of teams at nationals, i would say the gene pool is quite large...

 

[Dingdong]

Dingaling,
This isn't about changing this years selections. This is about NSW schools rugby looking at balancing a system that is clearly becoming two tiered. Do you honestly believe that the game is going to prosper in this state let alone nationally if the keepers of higher honours are limited to 6 schools in one association and to a lesser extent 6 more in another. Look back at the previous posts and it becomes obvious which pools the major percentage of selections are coming from. This unfortunately is then propagated into the open squads like this year where 9 GPS II's players where picked, many of whom have limited 1st XV competition games experience. I know that this doesn't resonate with many of this threads contributers who believe all in rugby is about 16yr olds, but some logical analysis of the bigger picture shows why we struggle to compete on the highest levels consistently with NZ and SA.
Now we can all bury our heads in the sand and just leave it in the to hard basket or grass roots rugby can be rejuvenated and help lead us back from the wilderness. Ask yourself why nearly all age group club rugby is now played on a sunday? Perhaps due to self interest from the above mentioned and a lot of people have just decided to get on board rather than fight it.
Others within this thread have shown through their dialouge that they also believe we have a flawed system and have spoken out in their dismay. As someone wisely said in another thread "Don't blame the players, blame the selectors who put them there".

I fully agree that the system Isn't perfect but I'm getting sick of hearing people blaming GPS for it. I just don't get it. The association that has the highest regard for and invest the most in Rugby, cop the most flack. They enjoy sucess because of this regard and shouldn't have to appologise for it. There is now a bloke in charge of CHS Rugby who will turn things around in the next few years and that my friend, is where the change needs to happen. Rugby at CHS in recent years has all but died but believe me that's about to change(started this year in opens). The fact that a team made up of essentially 6 schools can comprehensively beat another made up of hundreds of schools is where the problem is. We need to get the masses on board and stop bagginf the 1 association who I think is do plenty right.

 

[rara10]

Dingaling,
This isn't about changing this years selections. This is about NSW schools rugby looking at balancing a system that is clearly becoming two tiered. Do you honestly believe that the game is going to prosper in this state let alone nationally if the keepers of higher honours are limited to 6 schools in one association and to a lesser extent 6 more in another. Look back at the previous posts and it becomes obvious which pools the major percentage of selections are coming from. This unfortunately is then propagated into the open squads like this year where 9 GPS II's players where picked, many of whom have limited 1st XV competition games experience. I know that this doesn't resonate with many of this threads contributers who believe all in rugby is about 16yr olds, but some logical analysis of the bigger picture shows why we struggle to compete on the highest levels consistently with NZ and SA.
Now we can all bury our heads in the sand and just leave it in the to hard basket or grass roots rugby can be rejuvenated and help lead us back from the wilderness. Ask yourself why nearly all age group club rugby is now played on a sunday? Perhaps due to self interest from the above mentioned and a lot of people have just decided to get on board rather than fight it.
Others within this thread have shown through their dialouge that they also believe we have a flawed system and have spoken out in their dismay. As someone wisely said in another thread "Don't blame the players, blame the selectors who put them there".

No9
All this blaming the selectors does not sit well with me. Who exactly have they incorrectly selected and what is the name of the players that IYO should replace them?

 

[CTPE]

Sorry you are incapable of comprehending the message of my post. What I have been alluding to is that the real rugby (opens) has been dominated by Qld over the past few seasons as the selections at 16's level seem to transcend into the open ages without much change. The current NSW I's are showing the benefit of selecting from all the associations to find a balance of skill and mental aptitude that to date has not been forthcoming from the GPS heavily biased II's. If you only keep breeding from a shallow gene pool you end up rather disfunctional as is being seen at the higher levels. Therefore colleague, I respectfully suggest that the selectors are not doing as well as you suggest.

In your opening post on this issue at #1103 in this U16s thread you specifically inferred that the lack of success of last year’s U16 Schools side at the 2010 Nationals was because 19 of the squad of 23 were from GPS. Your argument is however patently flawed given that the School’s teams have won 6 of the 10 U16 National Championships conducted to date with the majority of the members of those triumphant teams also comprising GPS players. Take the 2009 side for instance – 13 GPS players.

So the 2010 Schools side full of GPS players didn’t win the Nationals because the selectors picked too many GPS players …. yet for the 2009 winning side and their predecessors that did it wasn't because the selectors picked a majority of GPS players!!!

I have no problem comprehending messages but regrettably yours is sheer nonsense, no doubt fuelled by your quite obvious anti GPS sentiment.

And by the way "real rugby" is not played soley at Opens level...I see real rugby being played every weekend by any kid of any age who participates in the game.

 

[baldingwingforward]

Are you kidding me DD, what happened to no sporting scholarships - I believe that is in the GPS by-laws. What a cop out.

Magpie - no one disputes the fact that Sports scholarships are not allowed in the GPS. Problem is that no one does anything to enforce it.

If you look at the GPS schools in the 16s team it is not hard to work out who does some extra recruiting...

 

[CTPE]

I fully agree that the system Isn't perfect but I'm getting sick of hearing people blaming GPS for it. I just don't get it. The association that has the highest regard for and invest the most in Rugby, cop the most flack. They enjoy sucess because of this regard and shouldn't have to appologise for it. There is now a bloke in charge of CHS Rugby who will turn things around in the next few years and that my friend, is where the change needs to happen. Rugby at CHS in recent years has all but died but believe me that's about to change(started this year in opens). The fact that a team made up of essentially 6 schools can comprehensively beat another made up of hundreds of schools is where the problem is. We need to get the masses on board and stop bagginf the 1 association who I think is do plenty right.

Brilliant statement DD!!

And oh so bloody true.

 

[magpie4ever]

My Solution to the present crap selection scheme

Thought my post last night would be my last for a while, then I decided bugger this; I have a better system then the present one. So here it is, your comments are welcome. Especially from those who believe the present system is r**ted.

As most of you know I’m one of the most vocal critics of the present system that sees favouritism, nepotism, politics and out right amateurism at the forefront of selections at least for Schools & (I believe) Sydney Juniors: examples; GPS coach sees 14 GPS players selected in schools & CAS coach sees 8 plus CAS players selected in Sydney Juniors., that sees CCC play so well at schools yet only get 1 player in Schools (the 2 in country was more to do with their selection to play for country at the regionals then playing for CCC at schools), that doesn’t and will never recognise a brilliant individual player in ACIES or country schools (maybe the next Cooper, Genia, Eales or O’connor) due to the teams’ overall lack of strength.

This result, I believe, at times in the wrong players going forward or future champion players being overlooked.

What I prepose below, is left of centre and outside the box but I believe is a possible solution (the logistics can be worked out if this forum believes there is some merit in it) to the extremely imperfect system that presently exist.

DD, you will need to read slowly as parts of it will be fairly complex but overall it is a fairly simple proposal.

1. Each school association run there selection trials (GPS, CAS, IAS, CCC, AICES, CHS and Country Schools) and then selected their squads of 23 players.
2. Players who are not selected in these squads above, but play club rugby (from overall NSW) on weekends then have a second chance by playing in selections trials for two more squads to be selected, lets call them Probables and Possibles. These squads are then selected.
3. So, there are now 8 squads & 8 lots of team coaches and management.
4. Now, sometime before the NSW selection trials, the 8 lots of team coaches/management come together. (this is the complex, out of the box part but stay with me)
5. They select a number from 1-8, to see who will get first pick out of the barrel. As an example, lets say it falls this way – 1: AICES, 2: ISA 3: CCC, 4: GPS, 5: Probables, 6: Country Schools, 7: CAS and 8: Possibles.
6. Ok, the first and only players to be drawn are the no:1s (Prop).
7. In this example, the AICES coach/management draws say CCC, ISA draws Possibles, CCC draws GPS, GPS draws AICES, Probables draws CAS, CAS draws Country Schools and Possibles draws CHS.
8. They now have their first players in their new combined ‘equal in talent’squads.
9. The 2nd player onwards rotates from the first draw upwards. So the new AICES (obviously change the squad name to say squad A) squad accepts the Possibles hooker as their number 2, ISA gets the GPS number 2, CCC gets AICES hooker, and so on and on until all squads have their 23 new squad members.
10. From this system, no new squad can have more then 3 players from their original squads.
11. Now it gets tricky, but lets say set aside a week during the July school holidays. University campus with on-site student accommodation would be best suited for logistics.
12. All players arrive on the Monday and train with their new squads under the guidance of the respective coaches/management until the competition starts on the Thursday.
13. Competition – 8 teams, 2 groups, 4 teams per group.
14. Round Robin Situation: Thursday – 2 games and Friday morning – 1game.
15. Finals: Friday afternoon: Depending on the results of the preliminary games.
16. 1st Place team (Group 1) v 1st Place team (Group2) etc.
17. Every team or squad plays 4 games.
18. True independent selectors (say 1 from ARU, 1 from Waratahs, 1 additional) watch all games.
19. At the end of the finals – NSW 1, NSW2 and possibly NSW3 are selected.
20. Here is the icing on the cake & gets rid of the nepotism and other crap.
21. The coach/management from the winners of the Final 1 v 1 becomes the coach/management of NSW1; the coach/management from the losers of the Final 1 v 1 becomes the coach/management of NSW2.
22. And if there is a NSW3, the coach/management from the winners of Final 2 v 2 becomes the coach/management.

Positives:

• all squads would have relevant equal ability; therefore every player would have game time to shine
• the true ability of coaches to bring a team together would be tested and this ability would be rewarded.

 

[Casnovian]

As most of you know I’m one of the most vocal critics of the present system that sees favouritism, nepotism, politics and out right amateurism at the forefront of selections at least for Schools & (I believe) Sydney Juniors: examples; GPS coach sees 14 GPS players selected in schools & CAS coach sees 8 plus CAS players selected in Sydney Juniors.

Not as simple as it may be perceived. In CAS for example each of those boys plays for a village club - probably have since under 11s and have their loyalty regularly tested to their own village club - even by their own schools - as they don't necessarily want them to play on the Sunday. Talk to anyone on the Saturday JRU competition in metropolitan Sydney - it is in dire straits - presumably due to the Saturday sport phenomena of many of the non CHS schools. This maybe a second bite of the cherry for the players - I think school background is irrelevant - you will probably find the double dose of rugby on the weekend over the years has greatly assisted them at a capacity, competency and capability level - and they are well up to the competition.

With regards to your proposal - well done for putting it forward. I hope it generates positive debate as I think we all agree the current system is fragmented and disjointed and if it remains unchecked will continue to reinforce the current perceived bias, prejudices and misunderstandings.

 

[wreckless]

Maggie - glad you decided to stick with us!

Complex - yes! Thought provoking - yes! Notwithstanding DD's previous point -which is well taken - I think anything that promotes discussion and a bit of "lateral thinking" is worthwhile!

I would make the comment that your proposed system is often utilised ( or was in my day when we were allowed to belt each other in lunchtime footy games! ) in the schoolyard where the 2 "captains" just take alternative picks until someone got the nerd last - then game on!

Even's the playing field but does it lower the overall standard?

 

[rara10]

Maggie
I appreciate you frustration and the time you took to compile this system. But the reality is if your system was to be used when the final selections came out there would be a whole new batch of people screaming how unfairly their boy was treated. I by no mean think the current system is the right one but will any system ever be the one to satisfy all. But I read with interest some of the other threads all the hype about the players that achieved greatness and were over looked as juniors. Now this does not make it right but once again it proves that cream rises to the top. I for one do not have the answer (wish I did) but maybe just maybe the system the ARU was trying to get off the ground was worth a shot. I will stand corrected but I believe they wanted to get boys from clubs schools and indeed other codes and bring them all together for a camp and some selection trials. Then I believe the intention was to pick two maybe three NSW teams to take to the Nationals.
Just a thought but might be worth a try

 

[magpie4ever]

Maggie - glad you decided to stick with us!

Complex - yes! Thought provoking - yes! Notwithstanding DD's previous point -which is well taken - I think anything that promotes discussion and a bit of "lateral thinking" is worthwhile!

I would make the comment that your proposed system is often utilised ( or was in my day when we were allowed to belt each other in lunchtime footy games! ) in the schoolyard where the 2 "captains" just take alternative picks until someone got the nerd last - then game on!

Even's the playing field but does it lower the overall standard?

No, I don't believe so. It creates a level playing field (pun intended) where a champion player will shine. Remember all those selected have been through a series of selection trials to make their original squads. Same players as the present scheme but different concept. Lets say, no more GPS v AICES 50-0 results, the good players will rise to the top. So, if in the end every GPS player gets chosen in the NSW squads they had earnt it. If say 6 AICES players get selected, people would be saying, "gez, we didn't player A, B, D etc had that ability".

 

[magpie4ever]

Maggie - glad you decided to stick with us!

Complex - yes! Thought provoking - yes! Notwithstanding DD's previous point -which is well taken - I think anything that promotes discussion and a bit of "lateral thinking" is worthwhile!

I would make the comment that your proposed system is often utilised ( or was in my day when we were allowed to belt each other in lunchtime footy games! ) in the schoolyard where the 2 "captains" just take alternative picks until someone got the nerd last - then game on!

Even's the playing field but does it lower the overall standard?

There is no selection until you get the nerd; the system is a lottery for the first players only then it just rotates around. The most players from the original squads (association) that can come together in the new squads is three. This will test the average player in a current strong association and allow the champion player in a weaker association to possibly shine. Will also test a coach's true ability. I expect the GPS supporters on this thread to not have a high opinion of this proposal because it will be a true test of a player's ability.