Where to for Super Rugby?

[wamberal]

There has been so much damage done to Super Rugby brand that I think the best thing is to create eventually a new competition and under a new brand.

Super Rugby brand is too badly tarnished to recover I feel.

It's not that the brand is tarnished. It is that the brand is virtually unknown, to the wider public anyway.


Fewer and fewer people care about the game at any level. Test, Soup, provincial, club.


Slight exaggeration, but not by much, unfortunately.

 

[TOCC]

It's certainly tarnished

 

[amirite]

IMO, this issue in Australia has got little or nothing to do with the brand 'Super Rugby' per se but everything to do with (a) the clear decline in skills and general quality of play by Australian pro rugby teams and (b) relatedly, the consistent degree to which we are losing at home to ever-improving NZ sides.

The team culling debacle just exacerbates the intrinsic fan negativity that inevitably comes from Australian pro rugby (Super and Wallabies) becoming - as it has - a losers' brigade.

Changing the brand name will mean nothing if the pro product quality - however it's packaged - says mired in ordinariness and obvious decline.

I agree largely RH.

Though I don't think it's necessarily a decline in skills, as much as it's bad secession planning. Basically every Aussie rugby team has either let their core playing group age out of their 'window' or is rebuilding this year.

Whilst this is unavoidable, it's bad management that this has happened to everyone at the same time. Central contracting (or some kind of centralised management of players) would help this, but the question is who would you trust to run this initiative?

 

[half]

It's not that the brand is tarnished. It is that the brand is virtually unknown, to the wider public anyway.


Fewer and fewer people care about the game at any level. Test, Soup, provincial, club.


Slight exaggeration, but not by much, unfortunately.

It's not that the brand is tarnished.

You must be the only person in Australia who think's that, even the ARU have said similar things.

Let me give you the best proof I can that Super Rugby is tarnished and sorry to many posters on this site in advance. For years nay over a decade I said often loudly that Super Rugby was a bad [putting it mildly] idea. Almost everyone disagreed so much did I protest my belief that many walked the other way when they saw me coming and on this site I am not allowed to start a thread essentially because I was so anti Super Rugby.

Today almost everyone agrees with me.

Hard core rusted on life long rugby die hard's are saying Super Rugby is shit and is hurting us [slight exaggeration] from the same posters who said I was a trouble maker, troll, out of touch etc.


It is that the brand is virtually unknown, to the wider public anyway.

Well if you stick a game on subscription TV that is run for the benefit of a US media company. Then play many games at times when no one can watch it. Don't promote, don't support local grassroots and park teams. Force on everyone a competition many don't care about lacking the support of many within rugby and play it under new rules at the business end of the NRL N AFL season.

What do you expect to happen


Fewer and fewer people care about the game at any level. Test, Soup, provincial, club.

HHHHHmmmmm most of the above comment. Plus plus plus you actually need to get out and sell the product you manage. You need to develop a strategy to make it work rather than rely on a US media company to do it for you and live off SA ratings.

Its called communication strategy. Just consider soccer when the A-League started the position it was in. For a communication strategy to work experts tell you as a challenging product [which we have always been to the NRL & AFL] messaging must be consistent, ongoing and simple.

Experts will also tell you the need to be very disciplined, so this is how using not much money terrible media and zero interest in a soccer professional league in Australia how Lowy using communication strategy to make the A-League work and the ARU did SFA.

1] Old soccer is new football [launch message]
2] We are football [claiming community identity]
3] Australia is part of the worlds biggest game[ aspiration for Australia]
4] Football is the fastest growing sport in Australia [everyone get on board]
5] The socceroos represent contemporary Australia better than any other sport [Australian identity]

Wam why have I used soccer, because they started broke, with inept, incompetent, corrupt officials. I could have used the Big Bash. I could use netball.

To blame the rules when world over rugby is expanding, ignores to me the obvious. Our management of rugby has been abysmal our media far to sucking the tit that feeds it and fans almost with a chip on their shoulder being unwilling to admit mistakes.

 

[half]

Bit heavy above.

SFC client just sent me a youtube, I pissed myself laughing at it. Its English soccer players trying to understand the Honey Badger.

Enjoy.

 

[wamberal]

I admire your passion, Half, I really do.


We will all have different perspectives, my views are based on experience here and overseas. There is no doubt that rugby when it is played well between two good teams is a wonderful spectator sport. However, even at its best it has never been much more than a niche sport here.


Other than repeating the undeniable fact that Australia has been at the forefront of reforming the Laws of the game, going back to the reform of kicking out on the full, through the Stellenbosch project, the experimental NRC variations et al (all of which demonstrate an acceptance that a more open, and accessible game is what we need above all else), there is very little that I can say.


I know what the people that I mix with think, they are a cross-section of sports lovers, with access to Foxtel, and they just do not like the game. End of story. Although maybe I should add that the places where it is growing (in some cases from non-existent to tiny - percentages can mislead) the competition is not of the magnitude of the NRL and the AFL. Soccer? Obviously it can co-exist, different markets, I reckon.

 

[Slim 293]

Other than repeating the undeniable fact that Australia has been at the forefront of reforming the Laws of the game......... through the Stellenbosch project

https://www.google.com.au/maps?q=st...ved=0ahUKEwjm1qGryPPUAhUDjZQKHbnYAk4Q_AUICygC


Australian innovation, going all the way back to William Webb Ellis..........

 

[Rebels3]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but americas rugby news is reporting that Washington is to be added to the Pro12/14/16/18. The quicker some common sense is applied to the game the better.

Trans-Tasman competition with a Fijian team
SAF by themselves with entry to the Champions Trophy
Premiership ring fenced at 14 teams
Pro 12 to reduce to pro10, kicking the Italian teams out
French system with limits of foreigners and run like professional entities
Top League by itself, no need for Sunwolves
USA and Canada form a semi professional league
Argentina open up eligibility to all players
2 x Italian teams in the French leagues, actually from major cities

Everyone will wake up but it might take 10+ years

 

[Rebels3]

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/07/05/washington-dc-reportedly-join-guinness-pro-12-2018/

For those wanting the link

 

[RedsHappy]

https://www.google.com.au/maps?q=st...ved=0ahUKEwjm1qGryPPUAhUDjZQKHbnYAk4Q_AUICygC


Australian innovation, going all the way back to William Webb Ellis....

If ever any of you posters go to RSA, do go to Stellenbosch.

At every level, exceptional physical beauty, wonderful wineries, warm and engaging people of all walks, deep rugby history and more, the place (and surrounding areas) is just magnificent.

 

[p.Tah]

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/07/05/washington-dc-reportedly-join-guinness-pro-12-2018/

For those wanting the link

Have they not been watching what happened to Super Rugby?

 

[RedsHappy]

Rugby is experiencing excellent growth in the USA.

Of course this must be due to the fact that there are no major competitive sports there to forestall this growth, unlike our 'uniquely unique' Australian sporting markets where there is all this overwhelmingly wonderful 'simple' football via AFL and NRL and soccer that is inexorably destroying rugby's position here.

Clearly the USA sports market presents none of these extraordinary challenges.

And whilst rugby grows happily and is very healthily developing in the UK, the fact that soccer totally dominates the UK sporting market places in cooler months presents a challenge to UK rugby that is infinitesimal in comparison to our extraordinarily special circumstances here in Australia.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/07/05/washington-dc-reportedly-join-guinness-pro-12-2018/

For those wanting the link

Likely playing out of DC United's brand new stadium. Which is hardly surprising as DC United is Co-owned by the USAR Chairman Will Chang.

He also happens to own around half of the SF Giants in the MLB. And where will the 2018 7s WC be held?*

 

[Highlander35]

Have they not been watching what happened to Super Rugby?

Yeah, but the Celtic Nations are stable.

Worst comes to worst, the WRU, SRU and IRFU would be more than OK with pulling the plug and returning to the Celtic League: Financially not ideal, but a fundamentally stable option for any short-medium length of time.

The money gap between the Top 14 and English Prem (outside the Champions Cup money is better but insufficient) and the Pro12 is growing, and they want/need to cut that gap to ensure the best environment for a) competitive sides in the European Competitions and b) retention of as international players as possible, so as to be able to manage their workloads across the September to June Season.

 

[amirite]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but americas rugby news is reporting that Washington is to be added to the Pro12/14/16/18. The quicker some common sense is applied to the game the better.

Trans-Tasman competition with a Fijian team
SAF by themselves with entry to the Champions Trophy
Premiership ring fenced at 14 teams
Pro 12 to reduce to pro10, kicking the Italian teams out
French system with limits of foreigners and run like professional entities
Top League by itself, no need for Sunwolves
USA and Canada form a semi professional league
Argentina open up eligibility to all players
2 x Italian teams in the French leagues, actually from major cities

Everyone will wake up but it might take 10+ years

There's plenty of logic in your post mate, but you obviously don't know much about Italian rugby.

Best you stick to nations you have a good understanding of.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but americas rugby news is reporting that Washington is to be added to the Pro12/14/16/18. The quicker some common sense is applied to the game the better.

Trans-Tasman competition with a Fijian team
SAF by themselves with entry to the Champions Trophy
Premiership ring fenced at 14 teams
Pro 12 to reduce to pro10, kicking the Italian teams out
French system with limits of foreigners and run like professional entities
Top League by itself, no need for Sunwolves
USA and Canada form a semi professional league
Argentina open up eligibility to all players
2 x Italian teams in the French leagues, actually from major cities

Everyone will wake up but it might take 10+ years

The US is working on their own league. While PRO collapsed next year will see Major League Rugby launch with 9 teams.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but americas rugby news is reporting that Washington is to be added to the Pro12/14/16/18. The quicker some common sense is applied to the game the better.

Trans-Tasman competition with a Fijian team
SAF by themselves with entry to the Champions Trophy
Premiership ring fenced at 14 teams
Pro 12 to reduce to pro10, kicking the Italian teams out
French system with limits of foreigners and run like professional entities
Top League by itself, no need for Sunwolves
USA and Canada form a semi professional league
Argentina open up eligibility to all players
2 x Italian teams in the French leagues, actually from major cities

Everyone will wake up but it might take 10+ years

The AP should ring fence their competition with 16 teams. This would ensure a better spread of locations covered. It also would represent the more realistic number of teams capable of competing full time across the top two division s of the English system.

 

[Rebels3]

There's plenty of logic in your post mate, but you obviously don't know much about Italian rugby.

Best you stick to nations you have a good understanding of.

Yeh very understanding of the Italian dynamic and the focus of the game to the north and the national competition, Iv been to and had a couple of old team mates go over there to play. My reasoning towards capital cities is the prestige and accessibility to grounds. Not focusing on the old national competition was because it has almost 0 chance of future growth, their political games off the field would make the aru look amateur. Teams in France was based on traditional rivalry, something Italy doesn't have with any Celtic nation.

Japan you could argue faces the same political mind field that Italy has at club land but the growth of the Top League has been impressive in the past 10 years. They need to move to a move professional model somehow but it isn't through the sunwolves, who will always play 2nd fiddle.

The US is working on their own league. While PRO collapsed next year will see Major League Rugby launch with 9 teams.

Yeh looking forward to them moving on from the disaster of pro. However it's more canada that is the issue in North America, with a sense of delusion that they don't need the USA to the next level. The game there is stagnating at best.

The AP should ring fence their competition with 16 teams. This would ensure a better spread of locations covered. It also would represent the more realistic number of teams capable of competing full time across the top two division s of the English system.

Can't argue too much with this, 75% of teams in the Championship don't even want to be promoted to the Premiership.

Things are definitely improving in England with the collaboration of clubland and the rfu.

It's no coincidence that the countries that have failed to progress beyond petty club/state/territory v national rivalries are the ones struggling on and off the field atm. France, Italy, South Africa, Canada, Argentina, Australia and to a lesser extent Japan are struggling to make an impact at the highest level. The countries that have reformed their system and have found a balance of cooperation between all are prospering at most level or at least improving.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It's no coincidence that the countries that have failed to progress beyond petty club/state/territory v national rivalries are the ones struggling on and off the field atm. France, Italy, South Africa, Canada, Argentina, Australia and to a lesser extent Japan are struggling to make an impact at the highest level.

Do all these countries have in fighting like us?

 

[Rebels3]

Do all these countries have in fighting like us?

Unfortunately they do.

Argentina- the amateur system there is refusing to play ball with the professional side. They arguably have the strongest amateur competition in the world. Auckland and the Shute Shield would have an argument against this tho

Wales - once they introduced the Celtic league sides they had massive backlash from the prexisting clubs. Some refusing to cooperate and fans were completely disengaged and refuse to support their new regional club. For example the dragons are made up of several regions, however only Newport fans have felt the need to support the franchise. To me it looks a lot like some poor decisions from a professional side leading to disengaging of fans of prexisting clubs versus prexisting clubs not living in the reality of the professional world.

France - the clubs compete on behalf of themselves and only themselves. Couldn't care less if the national team is ranked 10th in the world as long as they are no1. Despite collaboration would benefit all. Professional clubs have way too much power and absolutely no accountability to anyone. Culture of training and professionalism of top14 clubs is terrible. Top14 clubs and the FFR hate each other.

Japan - the company culture makes support from a regional sense difficult. The sunwolves could have a better team if the company clubs released players but they don't. Player burn out is real in Japan, those playing company, country and Super Rugby could play upto 40 games a year and the sunwolves getting a 2 week preseason.

Italy - petty club v pro12 franchises debate and old clubs refusing to collaborate together for the greater good. Italian rugby union is rife with territorial battles and once they try to implement measures clubs refuse out of spite.

South Africa - we all know the race v rand v corruption side of things

Canada - inflexible management and disconnect between grassroots and trying to implement a new high performance center.

Only a simplistic overview and more complex than that. Most cases it isn't one side wrong or not, however it's more stubbornness from the amateur side to realize it's 2017 and not 1977 and the professional decisions lacking empathy for history and tradition.