Waratahs 2014

[Brumby Runner]

Way, way too soon! Next year he will still be the third choice lock behind Douglas and Potgeiter (who was signed as a lock, not a backrower). I think he'll probably start two or three games and come on after 50 mins for the rest as a super-sub. That program will develop him nicely and give him plenty of time in the gym to develop his core strength so that his body can carry his bulk without ending up injury-prone. If he's still healthy and looking good, Link should take him on the EOYT as a non-playing development player (as NZ have done with Ardie Savea this year). He should not start as an international till 2015 at best.

Its interesting that Cheika wants a mobile lock to partner Douglas (bit like Douglas and Mumm from two years ago). That says to me he wants to move other teams around and attack down a multitude of channels again. I think I am going to enjoy watching next year.

Off topic I know, but what NZ have done with Ardie Savea is once again light year's ahead of us in terms of nurturing and developing talent. The big three coaches saw Ardie destroy us this year, marked his card for development and then kept a close eye on him. Now they have Black Seven covered through to the World Cup and beyond. McCaw, Cane and Savea with Todd in reserve! And we think we have hit a rich vein of talent at 7. Arguably, NZ is in the stronger position!

Can't agree that it would be too soon. If he proves to be good enough, he should start at the Tahs and for the Wallabies. I see him as similar to Brodie Retallick. Given a chance, he could prove to be just as good.

 

[en_force_er]

Can't agree that it would be too soon. If he proves to be good enough, he should start at the Tahs and for the Wallabies. I see him as similar to Brodie Retallick. Given a chance, he could prove to be just as good.

He could, but I do agree that he probably won't.

He's a project player with very unique factors and that's both why he's so promising and why it will take time.

 

[Brumby Runner]

He could, but I do agree that he probably won't.

He's a project player with very unique factors and that's both why he's so promising and why it will take time.

It's a funny thing, and I think maybe unique to Aus rugby fans, but there is a distinct belief amongst our supporters that obviously good, emerging players have to wait in the wings for some years before being given opportunities at the top level. Witness all the cries before the Lions' tour that nobody should be introduced to the test arena against such top level opposition. Just how did Izzy, Christian and Fardy go? Ditto with starting in the RC. Kuridrani, To'omua, Betham? Now we have the same conservative attitudes coming to the fore about an obvious talent like Skelton. No doubt there will be the same sentiments expressed about Godwin and any other newbies coming through next year. I take the view that players with exceptional talent should be brought into the top level asap where they will develop by being and playing with the best. If they are good enough, select them.

 

[jay-c]

It's a funny thing, and I think maybe unique to Aus rugby fans, but there is a distinct belief amongst our supporters that obviously good, emerging players have to wait in the wings for some years before being given opportunities at the top level. Witness all the cries before the Lions' tour that nobody should be introduced to the test arena against such top level opposition. Just how did Izzy, Christian and Fardy go? Ditto with starting in the RC. Kuridrani, To'omua, Betham? Now we have the same conservative attitudes coming to the fore about an obvious talent like Skelton. No doubt there will be the same sentiments expressed about Godwin and any other newbies coming through next year. I take the view that players with exceptional talent should be brought into the top level asap where they will develop by being and playing with the best. If they are good enough, select them.

actually id say the opposite is true
far too often players are brought through to early, thrown to the wolves- have their confidence crushed and they never develop properly
i think theres a lot to be said about players like hussey in the cricket who come into national teams after years developing who dont seem to make rookie mistakes on the big stage>
id put fardy and mowen in this category
lilo and To'omua are several years into their s15 careers and are only now beginning their wallaby careers (after much hype their early years)
izzy cannot be used as an example because the guy has plenty of experience on the big stage (gf's/origin/rl tests) and cannot be compared to skelton or godwin
bethams had one test> its not summer yet
australia has a bad history of rushing players into wallaby colours- mainly due to our lack of depth in years gone by

 

[Brumby Runner]

actually id say the opposite is true
far too often players are brought through to early, thrown to the wolves- have their confidence crushed and they never develop properly
i think theres a lot to be said about players like hussey in the cricket who come into national teams after years developing who dont seem to make rookie mistakes on the big stage>
id put fardy and mowen in this category
lilo and To'omua are several years into their s15 careers and are only now beginning their wallaby careers (after much hype their early years)
izzy cannot be used as an example because the guy has plenty of experience on the big stage (gf's/origin/rl tests) and cannot be compared to skelton or godwin
bethams had one test> its not summer yet
australia has a bad history of rushing players into wallaby colours- mainly due to our lack of depth in years gone by

Yeah - we will just have to disagree. The loud and clear statement I really object to was that it would be foolish to debut players in the Lions series or in the RC. Despite Izzy's experience elsewhere, the clamour was that he didn't have the rugby skills to make it at test level especially against the Lions. While Fardy and Mowen both had a lot of playing experience (although for Scott that wasn't at Super level until 2013), it was still widely held that they shouldn't debut against the Lions. Similar story for Christian, Matty, Kuridrani, Nic White, Scott Sio, Peter Betham, Jesse Mogg, Foley, et al ( and incidentally, how many of these are now first pick options for the Wallabies?). As I said, I expect the same will happen when Godwin and perhaps Henry Speight are available to be considered. The fact these players were all brought through is the reason we now have a much better pool of talent available for selection. Look at No 10 for example. At the end of Robbie deans' era, we had only JOC (James O'Connor) available, and KB (Kurtley Beale) out of action. Now we have Quade (returned from the wilderness), To'omua, Foley and Lealiifano. Same story for wingers. Now we have HB, Tomane, Betham, F'Sautia and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) with Speight in the wings.

The second row is one area (props are another) where the same pool hasn't been developed because fringe players like Pyle, Neville, Jones and Carter were ignored (or out injured) during the Lions tour and RC. We now have an exceptional talent in Skelton on the horizen and the call is to keep him away from even the Tahs' starting lineup for at least another twelve months. I simply do not agree.

Getting off thread here now, but the argument has stemmed from a question of whether Skelton should start for the Tahs or not. Maybe another thread would be appropriate to discuss the issues of when new players should be brought into the Wallabies' setup.

 

[en_force_er]

The second row is one area (props are another) where the same pool hasn't been developed because fringe players like Pyle, Neville, Jones and Carter were ignored (or out injured) during the Lions tour and RC. We now have an exceptional talent in Skelton on the horizen and the call is to keep him away from even the Tahs' starting lineup for at least another twelve months. I simply do not agree.

Getting off thread here now, but the argument has stemmed from a question of whether Skelton should start for the Tahs or not. Maybe another thread would be appropriate to discuss the issues of when new players should be brought into the Wallabies' setup.

My opinion is Skelton was incredible in the Lions game, and okay in the Force game. That's the only times we've seen him play a lot of high standard rugby at one time and, really, it's not enough to draw conclusions like "he's wallaby ready".

I watched the Waratahs-Force game just last week (it had so many up-and-coming players so it made for interesting re-watching) and he was okay. He make some interesting decisions around rucks, works hard, is good in the scrum, and has limited use in the lineouts.

So what can we conclude from the above? He's an incomplete player. By his own admission he's a preseason away from being ready for the wear and tear of regular super rugby. Not just in terms of skinfolds, but more in terms of fitness. It's not just shifting his frame for 50-60 mins a week, it's being fit enough to recover by Tuesday, get back into training, play 50-60 mins again, and rinse and repeat.

Let's get realistic, he's a good chance for the 2014 Spring Tour and should start plenty of games for the Tahs next year.

Should he start all of them? Probably not. Is he Wallaby ready? No.

It's natural to get wrapped up in the next big thing, but sometimes it pays to see the whole picture.

 

[Brumby Runner]

My opinion is Skelton was incredible in the Lions game, and okay in the Force game. That's the only times we've seen him play a lot of high standard rugby at one time and, really, it's not enough to draw conclusions like "he's wallaby ready".

I watched the Waratahs-Force game just last week (it had so many up-and-coming players so it made for interesting re-watching) and he was okay. He make some interesting decisions around rucks, works hard, is good in the scrum, and has limited use in the lineouts.

So what can we conclude from the above? He's an incomplete player. By his own admission he's a preseason away from being ready for the wear and tear of regular super rugby. Not just in terms of skinfolds, but more in terms of fitness. It's not just shifting his frame for 50-60 mins a week, it's being fit enough to recover by Tuesday, get back into training, play 50-60 mins again, and rinse and repeat.

Let's get realistic, he's a good chance for the 2014 Spring Tour and should start plenty of games for the Tahs next year.

Should he start all of them? Probably not. Is he Wallaby ready? No.

It's natural to get wrapped up in the next big thing, but sometimes it pays to see the whole picture.

He would be a very welcome inclusion in the current Wallabies' scrum, even if only for 50 - 60 minutes. Sita Timani is not in the same class, and Horwill is so far out of form it isn't funny. Fardy and Simmons out injured - where's the backup?

 

[Braveheart81]

He would be a very welcome inclusion in the current Wallabies' scrum, even if only for 50 - 60 minutes. Sita Timani is not in the same class, and Horwill is so far out of form it isn't funny. Fardy and Simmons out injured - where's the backup?

You rang?

 

[en_force_er]

He would be a very welcome inclusion in the current Wallabies' scrum, even if only for 50 - 60 minutes. Sita Timani is not in the same class, and Horwill is so far out of form it isn't funny. Fardy and Simmons out injured - where's the backup?

You think he could play 50-60 minutes of test rugby week in week out? I doubt it. He's played 2 Super Rugby standard games ever.


Ewen McKenzie is not an idiot, neither is Cheika. He needs this preseason to built his body and his skill-set. Starting him now would drastically limit his progress in the long term. We're not looking at a KB (Kurtley Beale) or a JOC (James O'Connor) here, we're looking at a tight 5 player who has to soak up a lot of contact.

Douglas is a fine Wallaby back-up. Skelton needs conditioning and skills development. Like I said, even if he could play well for the Wallabies missing what (if your opinions are right) will probably be his last full and uninterrupted preseason EVER would drastically shorten the quality and length of his career.

 

[en_force_er]

You rang?

He's been fantastic hasn't he. Scoring more tries than any second row has a right to.

 

[It is what it is]

You rang?

We'll become the laughing stock of world rugby if we resort to asking our Mum to play.

 

[Fowi]

Tim Methcer and and Ryan Hodson have been invited to train with the Tahs.

Also posted a video on their facebook of some of the training they have been doing.

 

[Hawko]

Tim Methcer and and Ryan Hodson have been invited to train with the Tahs.

Also posted a video on their facebook of some of the training they have been doing.

I think I would have liked to see a video of their training where there was more evidence of low body height and leg drive. Were they told to do their wrestling standing upright?

 

[Brumby Runner]

You rang?

Ha ha. Great joke!

 

[Zander]

Not sure why you think that's a joke, he's the best lock in England at the moment. That's coming from the English press too.

 

[Brumby Runner]

You think he could play 50-60 minutes of test rugby week in week out? I doubt it. He's played 2 Super Rugby standard games ever.


Ewen McKenzie is not an idiot, neither is Cheika. He needs this preseason to built his body and his skill-set. Starting him now would drastically limit his progress in the long term. We're not looking at a KB (Kurtley Beale) or a JOC (James O'Connor) here, we're looking at a tight 5 player who has to soak up a lot of contact.

Douglas is a fine Wallaby back-up. Skelton needs conditioning and skills development. Like I said, even if he could play well for the Wallabies missing what (if your opinions are right) will probably be his last full and uninterrupted preseason EVER would drastically shorten the quality and length of his career.

No, Were looking for a Brodie Retallick type.

 

[Richo]

We'll become the laughing stock of world rugby if we resort to asking our Mum to play.

But we'd have a Mumm again to go with Two Dads.

 

[scaraby]

But we'd have a Mumm again to go with Two Dads.

reminds of something you'd read in Penthouse

 

[fatprop]

No, Were looking for a Brodie Retallick type.

disagree, I see Douglas and Skelton as TH locks, LH lock is where we were short and Potiger was picked up. The way we are playing a mobile athletic lock is needed to balance the the less mobile big bopper (Mumm would have fit that role as well)

 

[Gnostic]

Timani confirmed to start at Montpellier on Dec 2.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-for-champagne-and-caviar-20131107-2x4f0.html

I hope the constant grind of the Top 14 drills in some consistent work rate and lifts his effectiveness along with improving general ball skills. He could be an asset if these things happen.