Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
Couldn't believe what I heard. Dwyer didn't look too convincing when he said it either.
Waratahs 2011
- Thread starter fatprop
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Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
Kurtley as a player is a bit of an enigma who has been poorly treated by Hickey. He was playing brilliantly at 10 in the final under Link in 2008 until he got injured. After that under Hickey and Deans he got shifted all over the shop. Just about the only position he hasn't played is 13. Dwyer is a great judge of players and you have to give him some consideration for that whereas if someone else suggested it you would dismiss it immediately.
My concern is that he needs some stability to develop his game, which is potentially brilliant. The brain snap that caused lots of people to write him off forever (that grubber) was just him trying something outrageous that had worked well for him in the S14. [Not everything that Campese ever did worked either, but we still revere him as our greatest ever winger]. Kurtley needs stability at 15 so he can work out for himself what will work at 15 in test match football. I think the time for us to experiment will be 2012 after the WC. He'll have all 2011 to learn 15 and what he can contribute there. In 2012 he'll have a new S15 coach and probably a new national coach. A number of older players will move on, maybe Cooper will go mungo and we'll need a new 10, who knows. Unless some dramatic problem emerges beforehand I think that's the time for him to move. Whether its to 13 or not will be more evident by then. Remember that Burke played 13 after 15 when Latham finally nailed 15, so there are precedents. I reckon we should move a little more slowly and give people time to settle in before shuffling them around again.
My concern is that he needs some stability to develop his game, which is potentially brilliant. The brain snap that caused lots of people to write him off forever (that grubber) was just him trying something outrageous that had worked well for him in the S14. [Not everything that Campese ever did worked either, but we still revere him as our greatest ever winger]. Kurtley needs stability at 15 so he can work out for himself what will work at 15 in test match football. I think the time for us to experiment will be 2012 after the WC. He'll have all 2011 to learn 15 and what he can contribute there. In 2012 he'll have a new S15 coach and probably a new national coach. A number of older players will move on, maybe Cooper will go mungo and we'll need a new 10, who knows. Unless some dramatic problem emerges beforehand I think that's the time for him to move. Whether its to 13 or not will be more evident by then. Remember that Burke played 13 after 15 when Latham finally nailed 15, so there are precedents. I reckon we should move a little more slowly and give people time to settle in before shuffling them around again.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Many of us said on the TSF said that Beale should not have been used in pro rugby a few weeks after leaving school, when he had just turned 18. But the Tahs were looking for a Messiah at 10 so they prodded him out onto the field in the veldt in 2007.
A young lad like that may have got away such a situation in some other position: wing, for example, but being a flyhalf he was expected to run a back line. He scarcely did that at school: the other players feed off his brilliance or he took advantage of their good play, but being a general wasn't a strong point and wasn't needed that often at Joeys in his era.
He played quite a lot at fullback at school when the other team had the ball. At first it was to protect a slight 15 year old, but when he was one of the bigger backs in Yr.12 he didn't have any particular problems on defence. He played fullback a lot to take advantage of the many turnovers that the Joeys blue heelers produced and some of his runs to set up the likes of Betham were brilliant.
In that respect I mused that he would do OK as a senior fullback but that was not under consideration then. When he left school I wished he could play club rugby to develop his game as a senior flyhalf on the job. Instead he had to learn it playing against professionals.
These are not remarks in hindsight; they were made in foresight also.
Now, at age 21, should be the time to judge him as a flyhalf, but he has gone from that spot and making a good fist of fullback in the Latham manner. Latho was often absent from his post at fullback on attack, sniffing around the ruck and was still doing it for his club in the GP last year. He was caught out a few times when the ball was turned over at the Reds, sometimes by him, and the same will happen to KB (Kurtley Beale). But he's making a good fist of it though without having Latho's huge boot or electric speed.
I'd like to see him back at flyhalf one day and his time at fullback will serve him in good stead if that happens. The flyhalf is the natural protagonist for the fullback and he will know his enemy. If Barnes goes offshore after the RWC as folks are talking about, he will be the back up for Hangers at the Tahs, if he is still around himself, that is.
After saying all this I think his natural position may be at inside centre. There's not a lot of evidence for this, just on tour in the RSA at the end of 2009 and at the start of this year. His defence has kicked on as it would have had to to play at 12. Already this year we have seen for the Tahs that his goal line defence is good (when others don't get in his way) and the manner of his tackle of the big Kiwi lock in Christchurch should put to rest accusations of lack of ticker that had been merited.
Dwyers assertion that 13 is his best position is a bit of a head scratcher as Hawko says, but nobody knows if he's right of wrong.
A young lad like that may have got away such a situation in some other position: wing, for example, but being a flyhalf he was expected to run a back line. He scarcely did that at school: the other players feed off his brilliance or he took advantage of their good play, but being a general wasn't a strong point and wasn't needed that often at Joeys in his era.
He played quite a lot at fullback at school when the other team had the ball. At first it was to protect a slight 15 year old, but when he was one of the bigger backs in Yr.12 he didn't have any particular problems on defence. He played fullback a lot to take advantage of the many turnovers that the Joeys blue heelers produced and some of his runs to set up the likes of Betham were brilliant.
In that respect I mused that he would do OK as a senior fullback but that was not under consideration then. When he left school I wished he could play club rugby to develop his game as a senior flyhalf on the job. Instead he had to learn it playing against professionals.
These are not remarks in hindsight; they were made in foresight also.
Now, at age 21, should be the time to judge him as a flyhalf, but he has gone from that spot and making a good fist of fullback in the Latham manner. Latho was often absent from his post at fullback on attack, sniffing around the ruck and was still doing it for his club in the GP last year. He was caught out a few times when the ball was turned over at the Reds, sometimes by him, and the same will happen to KB (Kurtley Beale). But he's making a good fist of it though without having Latho's huge boot or electric speed.
I'd like to see him back at flyhalf one day and his time at fullback will serve him in good stead if that happens. The flyhalf is the natural protagonist for the fullback and he will know his enemy. If Barnes goes offshore after the RWC as folks are talking about, he will be the back up for Hangers at the Tahs, if he is still around himself, that is.
After saying all this I think his natural position may be at inside centre. There's not a lot of evidence for this, just on tour in the RSA at the end of 2009 and at the start of this year. His defence has kicked on as it would have had to to play at 12. Already this year we have seen for the Tahs that his goal line defence is good (when others don't get in his way) and the manner of his tackle of the big Kiwi lock in Christchurch should put to rest accusations of lack of ticker that had been merited.
Dwyers assertion that 13 is his best position is a bit of a head scratcher as Hawko says, but nobody knows if he's right of wrong.
Crow
Jimmy Flynn (14)
On his kicking; One of the things that's disappointed me in the current crop of 15s we've gone though is the lack of quality positional kicking when required. I think Beale's had it over AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), but I'd like him to get better.
Also, if KB (Kurtley Beale) moves to 10, he's limiting his opportunities in regards to the WB. Genia's got that position sewn up ATM. I'd be pushing for 15 or maybe (following Dwyer's prompting) 13.
U
Utility Back
Guest
Genia plays 9, do you mean cooper?
inthestands
Sydney Middleton (9)
This is a bit rich isn't it?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but after taking the Tahs to the Final at No.10 in 2008 Beale started there under Hickey in 2009. The Tahs weren't going great and lost back-to-back games to the Brumbies and Crusaders, so Halangahu was given an opportunity at No.10 against the Blues with Beale on the Bench. It worked. Halangahu played well and Beale was having good impact, including the match against the Stormers where he came on as a reserve and set up the match-winning try. After losing two more games to the Bulls and Force, and with Horne injured, they reinstated Beale to the starting team at No12 outside Halangahu with Tahu at 13. They went through a 3-game tour of Africa with this combination and won all three matches which no other Aus/NZ team had done. People were hailing this as Beale's new position.
In 2010, Hickey started Beale at No12 outside Barnes but it was clear after South Africa the combination wasn't working. After Anesi failed to provide the impact they wanted, Beale was given a chance by Hickey at fullback and he grabbed it with both hands.
I don't think Beale was treated badly at all. He was dropped for Halangahu when he wasn't playing well at flyhalf. He got an opportunity at No.12 in 2009 and 2010 however when it started to go pear-shaped the coach went in another direction which has ultimately put him in the Wallabies starting XV.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I agree with this and being dropped did him no harm at all as it didn't to more famous players than he is in all kinds of sports.
The thing I had a gripe with was using him so much before his time. His maturity, rugby and family background was hardly standard compared to the average player starting in Super rugby and it would have been well to bring him on slowly to make success more likely. Those early setbacks could have affected him a lot yet he is playing for the Wallabies now on a regular basis.
Other players have had worse initiations to pro sport but he should get some praise for breaking through adversity.
inthestands
Sydney Middleton (9)
There's an old saying in sport that "if you're good enough, you're old enough". In Beale's case, he played No.10 in a team which went within 25mins of a Super 14 title. In fact, it was only after he came off injured in that game and Norton-Knight had to fill in that the Crusaders really got on top.
If we're talking about Beale being moved around too much, how must Adam Ashley-Cooper feel, or James O'Connor?
It is interesting we start backs many years before most other nations, it has it's positives and negatives.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
I will admit to buying into the Sydney press hype machine with Kurtley early in his career. On paper he looked fantastic, but it was until he played a few games in the ARC that I became a proper believer in the kid's talent. I saw enough glimpses of what he was capable of to indicate that he was a good long term bet. I was disappointed that Hickey moved him to fullback this year, but in hindsight it may have been a stroke of genius, as he played some good footy there. I now hope that he gets enough starts at 15 for the Wallabies for us to properly assess where he's at and I think through our current injury situation that it will probably work out that way. FP says it well, we do tend to throw our young backs in very early, for better or worse.
His talent is prodigious, I just hope that the reality is that way too.
His talent is prodigious, I just hope that the reality is that way too.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I've heard it often for more decades than I care to mention and it's a phrase that is always trotted out when such a matter is being discussed. There isn't a lot of agreement though from the parents of of such players including parents who post on more than one forum I could name, but includes this one, and contact me back channel.
It is not useful to start an argument with such "if they are old enough they are good enough" naysayers. When you suggest things like a player can only take so many impacts in a rugby career at the pro level and it would be better to move the incidence of such collisions forward for when they are better prepared for them you get silence, or deflective responses such as "the coaches know what they doing."
You're right and I doubt if the pro teams from any other nation use so many schools leavers starting in their teams - or even lads a full year after leaving school.
I am not so worried, for example, about backs swanning out on the wing starting early as they don't defend in high traffic corridors, but scrummies and flyhalves and 12s should have more physical preparation than what a school leaver has.
I am very concerned about school leavers who are forwards starting in Super games. The most egregious example was the Brumbies using 18 y.o. Michael Hooper after George Smith was injured this year, which was not long after Michael had had a shoulder reconstruction in Year 12.
But I suppose the coaches knew what they were doing.
Crow
Jimmy Flynn (14)
Yes, we'll ignore that faux pas.
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
On another thread it has been noted that Hickey is looking for a winger/fullback in New Zealand. After the Anese debacle this year I thought he would have learnt a lesson, but it seems not. Anyone of exceptional talent (which is what you want from a marquee player) is already in the All Black program. What's left are the "might have beens". I am perplexed that we can't find back-ups for Turner, Beale and Mitchell from Shute Shield and would have thought that D'Arcy and Grant at the least and probably others would have deserved a shot at a full contract. D'Arcy obviously thought he had a better chance of getting a game in Ireland.
It looks like the time has passed to elevate Foley this year in time for the season start, so its back to Mr Conservative and no chance for a title till 2012.
It looks like the time has passed to elevate Foley this year in time for the season start, so its back to Mr Conservative and no chance for a title till 2012.
en_force_er
Geoff Shaw (53)
There is nothing wrong with taking a punt on a NZ might-have-been. Just don't give them the starting jersey just because you feel like it.
I think the problem is having a winger ready to start a game in if Mitchell or Turner are wounded. The Tahs appear to be very conservative and in their perfect world you have a back up winger available who has some pro experience and the ability to slot right in.
Like say Staniforth.............................. or a young gun with a lot of potential.
I hope they go for Grant and develop someone, but they also have Ed Jenkins and Jacob Woodhouse (who is playing 3rds for Easts?) in the pro academy and in the amateurs Greg Jeloudev
Like say Staniforth.............................. or a young gun with a lot of potential.
I hope they go for Grant and develop someone, but they also have Ed Jenkins and Jacob Woodhouse (who is playing 3rds for Easts?) in the pro academy and in the amateurs Greg Jeloudev
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
This is exactly why I would have preffered the the Tahs to sign Sapnner. He is far more versatile than Cross and IMO a better player in any position as well.
Again there are options in the Shute Shield like Grant and a few others that we should be looking at first.
Why sign another allegedly Marquee player when we could have had a proven test player in Spanner.
Again there are options in the Shute Shield like Grant and a few others that we should be looking at first.
Why sign another allegedly Marquee player when we could have had a proven test player in Spanner.
dobduff11
Trevor Allan (34)
Bit harsh on Beale to drop him in 09 after losses against the Crusaders and the brumbies, its not like they lost to the lions and the highlanders is it.
Beale should play at 15 for the next season and after RWC we might see a 9.Genia, 10. Cooper, 12. JOC (James O'Connor) , 13. Beale combo
I sort of agree with Lee about schoolboy forwards being too young to play super 14 but i find it fascinating watching the schoolboy backs to see how they go,
when i first saw beale i thought he might be the messiah, i thought the same thing about To'omua, JOC (James O'Connor), and quade.
Not all of the marquee options in NZ are have beens, Hosea gear, nanai williams, sweeney,Tuitavake would all do a good job but the waratahs shouyld look for home grown talent. Therefore i think the Waratahs should sign Aidan Toua he would serve them well.
Beale should play at 15 for the next season and after RWC we might see a 9.Genia, 10. Cooper, 12. JOC (James O'Connor) , 13. Beale combo
I sort of agree with Lee about schoolboy forwards being too young to play super 14 but i find it fascinating watching the schoolboy backs to see how they go,
when i first saw beale i thought he might be the messiah, i thought the same thing about To'omua, JOC (James O'Connor), and quade.
Not all of the marquee options in NZ are have beens, Hosea gear, nanai williams, sweeney,Tuitavake would all do a good job but the waratahs shouyld look for home grown talent. Therefore i think the Waratahs should sign Aidan Toua he would serve them well.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
dobduff wouldn't happen to be a Pommy nephew of yours by any chance, Lee? At least your rugby obsession appears to be largely confined to Australia, whereas dd seems to keep tabs on the rugby universe.
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