Waratahs 2011

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I'll stand by my opinion that he's a pretty limited player, hence the reason why I asked what the Tahs get from him. He's not rubbish, clearly, just not a superstar. No shame in that I guess.

I did watch his performance from the weekend against Eastwood and thought he had a fairly average game.

 

[rugbyfan]

"Does anyone else think Tom Carter doesn't deserve to be playing Super 15? He has been playing shocking for Uni and i personally hate him."

One really stupid comment is all it takes to start them off. Outraged by the idiocy of that statement I made a ludicrously sarcastic comment about his game against Eastwood and then we get these responses:

"He did look pretty flat. ... Carter isn't up to it at the moment."

"With Horne in the backline (when fit), you've already got the hard straight running and solid defence. What would Carter add to that?"

"whilst he had a bad day against Eastwood is usually reliable."

Actually Tom Carter's dominant display against Eastwood had a great deal to do with their capitulation in the last twenty minutes of the game. The amount of work he got through in bending their defensive line, his powerful, aggressive defence and his kick chases put sustained pressure on the Eastwood midfield, resulting in them having no gas in the tank when it really counted. Far from "playing shocking" he had an outstanding game.

With regard to Rob Horne, he has been very obviously out of form since the latter part of the Super 14 season, having very limited involvement each time he played. My suspicions were and are that he must have been running onto the field carrying injuries; yet he is still the subject of unqualified adulation.

We now get the acknowledged Carter hater coming back on to explain his outburst:

"I thought i'd vent my frustration on Tom Carter.

"It goes back to when Carter had a gigantic gap created by Barnes, all he had to do was use his vision to run the unders line and it was a try under the posts (Schoolboy Level), yet he had tunnel vision and completely screwed an opportunity to score - Barnes then went over to Carter and told him which line to run with a frustrated hand signal.

"Since then, Carter is nothing."

This provoked a supporting response:

"I vividly remember that. It was a terrible skill failure for that position and I shared your frustration when he didn't hit the unders line. He appeared to be out of his depth."

So that's what it comes down to. A single misunderstanding between two players is enough for one of them to be written off.

A Sydney Uni fan isn't going to diss their own. The waratahs have so many effective centres coming through their academy, yet their is suggestions that you bring him on to steady the ship - that was the Waratahs problem last year, they went into their shell and played field position, instead of trying an exciting and successful game like the Reds did - Tom Carter has had his time to shine, if there isn't improvement it's time to give someone who wants it more a go.

 

[Gnostic]

If the there were better options in the Squad Fan I would say yes. The problem is the Tahs signed Cross instead of Spanner who has shown he is a true option at 12. 13 Should be Horne's as long as he is fit. If Horne is' fit the Tahs could do a lot worse that trial what Dwyer suggested and play Beale there. Left field selection and not something that I would have thought of in all honesty, but Dwyer's argument regarding support play, pace etc etc gave merit to his idea. also the fact that Dwyer has a proven record of selecting players in positions that nobody really thought would work and it has come off more times than not. Yes I know there have been some spectacular failures along the way as well but on balance he is a long way in front.

 

[Bruce Ross]

A Sydney Uni fan isn't going to diss their own. The waratahs have so many effective centres coming through their academy.

Certainly not when the player concerned has been the dominant centre in the Shute Shield for at least five years. Could you enlighten me on the "many effective centres coming through [the Waratahs] academy"?

 

[rugbyfan]

He definitly hasn't been dominate. I have watched 2 of the Junior Waratahs matches this year - don't know the names of the centres but i rememeber thinking they dserve a crack at the next level - maybe they are not being rushed. Ryan cross and Brackin Karauria-Henry would even be better for the Tahs than Carter. Even still there is plenty of depth in that position, it is evident watching the Shute Shield

 

[Mole]

One thing that amazes me in rugby unlike any other code is that the game is so subjective. In the NRL stats play a key role in depicting a players worth to a team. In AFL each weekend you open the paper you will see each players key stats from the game. Kick/mark/disposal/possesion etc. In rugby we have armchair experts that have an opinion about each player without key objective data to back them up. I think it was Noddy who did some great work on the blog regarding key stats for both the top forwards and backs in the super 14 this year. It would be refreshing to dig them up to compare where everyone sat.

The critics who have slagged Carters season so far are entitled to their opinion however uni aint going half bad at the moment to think rugbyfan that you can say that uni dont have centres in the shute shield compared to other teams? Lachie Mitchell and Mitch Inman are no good either are you saying? Its a shame that the sportal forum has shut down as Green and Gold has inherited some "Cowboys" to say the least. The punters can slag the bloke as much as they like, but i guess only his team mates at the waratahs and Syd Uni will know his true worth.

 

[rugbyfan]

One thing that amazes me in rugby unlike any other code is that the game is so subjective. In the NRL stats play a key role in depicting a players worth to a team. In AFL each weekend you open the paper you will see each players key stats from the game. Kick/mark/disposal/possesion etc. In rugby we have armchair experts that have an opinion about each player without key objective data to back them up. I think it was Noddy who did some great work on the blog regarding key stats for both the top forwards and backs in the super 14 this year. It would be refreshing to dig them up to compare where everyone sat.

The critics who have slagged Carters season so far are entitled to their opinion however uni aint going half bad at the moment to think rugbyfan that you can say that uni dont have centres in the shute shield compared to other teams? Lachie Mitchell and Mitch Inman are no good either are you saying? Its a shame that the sportal forum has shut down as Green and Gold has inherited some "Cowboys" to say the least. The punters can slag the bloke as much as they like, but i guess only his team mates at the waratahs and Syd Uni will know his true worth.

I edited, was pretty much just talking about Carter.

 

[Rob42]

One thing that amazes me in rugby unlike any other code is that the game is so subjective. In the NRL stats play a key role in depicting a players worth to a team. In AFL each weekend you open the paper you will see each players key stats from the game. Kick/mark/disposal/possesion etc. In rugby we have armchair experts that have an opinion about each player without key objective data to back them up. I think it was Noddy who did some great work on the blog regarding key stats for both the top forwards and backs in the super 14 this year. It would be refreshing to dig them up to compare where everyone sat.

Well, that's part of the beauty of rugby - I don't there are any stats which "objectively" define a player. Run/kick/pass/tackle/gain line type stats only tell part of the story.

 

[Aussie D]

I'd be quite happy seeing Carter remain at 12. IMHO Carter was one of the unsung heroes at 12 in the 'tahs late season resurgence.

 

[observer]

I can't believe someone here is getting their knickers in a knot all because not everyone loves his favourite player. Let's move on.

 

[Spewn]

Does anyone agree with Bob Dwyer that Kurtley is an outside centre?

 

[rugbyfan]

When i heard him say that i questioned it, he has been tearing it up at Fullback and i reckon he's as safe as AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), i think at the moment AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) would be a better 13 and Beale at 15.

 

[Spewn]

It was at least a good example of lateral thinking. I agree that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) would be better at 13 but what if Horne was fit? Where do you put Kurtley?

 

[louie]

I think KB (Kurtley Beale) could be a fantastic 13. He can be lethal in broken with ball in hand and a nice on the run play-maker when given space.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Kurtley's running game is fantastic and he's a good passer, but what about his defence? Would it stand up to the toughest defensive position in the backline?

I like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Horne at 13 and (currently) KB (Kurtley Beale) at 15. That'll do me for now and let's see how it goes for a few games.

 

[cyclopath]

He definitly hasn't been dominate. I have watched 2 of the Junior Waratahs matches this year - don't know the names of the centres but i rememeber thinking they dserve a crack at the next level - maybe they are not being rushed. Ryan cross and Brackin Karauria-Henry would even be better for the Tahs than Carter. Even still there is plenty of depth in that position, it is evident watching the Shute Shield

Please explain how a crabbing 13, and a sevens player (who by the way may technically still be a Kiwi) pretty much untested at Provincial level WOULD be better?
I am not Carter's biggest fan (I believe he is a bit limited, but a very solid player), but this type of speculation is fanciful.

 

[louie]

if you've got a very defensive 12 he might not be so bad. might be worth a look.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I reckon Cross could end up at 12 for the Tahs next year. I'm still surprised that he left the Force, because he'll battle to get a game next year if all the candidates are fit.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

He definitly hasn't been dominate. I have watched 2 of the Junior Waratahs matches this year - don't know the names of the centres but i rememeber thinking they dserve a crack at the next level - maybe they are not being rushed. Ryan cross and Brackin Karauria-Henry would even be better for the Tahs than Carter. Even still there is plenty of depth in that position, it is evident watching the Shute Shield

I agree with Bruce - Carter has been the dominant centre in the Shute Shield for the past 5 years. He has dominated with his go forward and line breaks, his defence and his kick chase work. If you don't agree, rugbyfan, then let's here a name or 2 that have been better. Clint Eadie and Tom Azar have been good players in that time but Eadie's defence was a weakness and Azar was a great defender for a smaller player but was not as strong as Carter in attack. In fact, I would go as far to say that Uni changed from being a heavily forward orientated game to a more expansive team as a result of Carter and Hangers.

 

[rugbyfan]

It was at least a good example of lateral thinking. I agree that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) would be better at 13 but what if Horne was fit? Where do you put Kurtley?

What is Horne came on later in the game? Too me he is an impact player, very evasive, maybe have kurtley at 15 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13, then at about the 60th minute bring horne on to 13 and shift AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to 15 - beale to bench.