Waratahs 2011

[fatprop]

Dan Vickerman signs with Australian Rugby Until End of 2013
August 13, 2010 - 12:05pm
Story by: ARU
Wallabies lock Dan Vickerman on the charge

Australia’s second row stocks for next year have been boosted by the return of Dan Vickerman

Australia’s second row stocks for next year have been boosted by the return of Dan Vickerman, who has re-signed with Australian Rugby from June next year until the end of 2013.

The country’s third most capped lock forward, with 55 previous Test appearances to his name, Vickerman debuted against France in Sydney in 2002, having previously represented South Africa in the Under-21 age group.

A member of the Australian squads at the 2003 and 2007 Rugby World Cups, the 31-year-old last appeared for the Qantas Wallabies during the 27-15 win over South Africa at Durban in 2008.

A shoulder injury, sustained during that match, forced Vickerman home from the two-Test tour, bringing an early end to his involvement in the Tri Nations series.

He then left the country before the end of that year to commence a period of study at Cambridge University in England.

Qantas Wallabies coach Robbie Deans welcomed Vickerman’s return to Australian Rugby.

“Dan will have to earn his place, as any player does, but his return to Australia is great news for the game and potentially the Wallabies,” Deans said.

“Regaining a player of his wide ranging experience can only have benefits, especially given that he plays in a position where our depth has been tested in recent times. We have some promising young locks emerging but you can’t buy experience and Dan certainly brings that to the table.”

Vickerman, who has been sidelined from rugby in recent months due to injury, will return to Australia on a fulltime basis once he has concluded his studies.

While he will arrive back in time to potentially play in a third Rugby World Cup, Deans says no guarantees have been offered in terms of selection.

“Dan knows that he will have to earn a place in the Wallabies like everyone else. He will have to make the most of the playing opportunities that he has once he gets back to Australia, prior to our first selection.”

Vickerman has also re-signed with the NSW Waratahs, whom he represented between 2004 and 2008, having started off in Super Rugby with the Brumbies in 2001.

“It was a big decision to leave Australia in 2008 but I wouldn’t change a thing,” said Vickerman.

“Rugby has given me the opportunity to play and study abroad but next year is the right time to come back.

“I’ve been in communication with the coaching staff at the Waratahs and the Wallabies for a while now and collectively we’re all on the same page in terms of where we want to be at and what we want to accomplish.

“I know there’s a lot of hard work to be done over the next 12 months to push for a place in the World Cup squad but that’s what I’m focusing on and that’s what I want to achieve.”

 

[Lee Grant]

Wow - until 2013. Now you're talking more than the RWC.

He will be good value to both the Tahs and the Wallabies. Even if his playing ability has declined, or will decline, his expertise as a lineout general will be available if he is contracted to Oz rugby.

I have been at a couple of training sessions where Vickerman was the de facto lineout coach and his knowledge and gravitas had the players hanging on every word, even though he was their team mate.

A good signing of a player/coach.

PS - One trusts that the ARU will hire a personal trainer over there to get him up to peak off-field condition prior to his returning.

 

[Moses]

Next Tahs captain? How many more years has Phil got?

 

[RugbyReg]

nah, let him work behind scenes. TPN all the way (as a Neil Fraser non-playing captain obviously)

 

[Lee Grant]

Yeah, TPN is a good pick and Dean Mumm is also. I hope not Barnes if he is still with us. You need a forward to negotiate with the ref, or at worst a scrummie.

 

[Moses]

Burgess has the communications skills, I think he'd do a fine job tallking to Refs

 

[#1 Tah]

I rekkon we need to keep starting Mumm and Douglas, Mummsey for his leadership and Douggie so he gets more experience. What one look like a grim lock-stock is now blossoming. Mumm, Douglas, Vickerman, Jowwitt, Caldwell and Dennis are all capable.

Also Vicks is also only with us from round 9; And Sidey has left.

 

[#1 Tah]

So my team to win the final will be:

1: Benn Robionson
2: Tatafu Polota-Nau
3: Al Baxter
4: Dean Mumm
5: Kane Douglas
6: Pat McCutcheon
7: Phil Waugh
8: Wycliff Palu
9: Luke Burgess
10: Berrick Barnes
11: Drew Mitchell
12: Tom Carter
13: Rob Horne
14: Lachie Turner
15: Kurtley Beale

16: Damien Fitzpatrick
17: Jeremy Tilse
18: Dan Vickerman
19: Dave Dennis/Ben Mowen
20: Josh Holmes/Brendan McKibben
21: Daniel Halangahu
22: BKH.

Also in contention are McCaffery, Jowitt and Caldwell

 

[Hawko]

So my team to win the final will be:

1: Benn Robionson
2: Tatafu Polota-Nau
3: Al Baxter
4: Dean Mumm
5: Kane Douglas
6: Pat McCutcheon
7: Phil Waugh
8: Wycliff Palu
9: Luke Burgess
10: Berrick Barnes
11: Drew Mitchell
12: Tom Carter
13: Rob Horne
14: Lachie Turner
15: Kurtley Beale

16: Damien Fitzpatrick
17: Jeremy Tilse
18: Dan Vickerman
19: Dave Dennis/Ben Mowen
20: Josh Holmes/Brendan McKibben
21: Daniel Halangahu
22: BKH.

Also in contention are McCaffery, Jowitt and Caldwell

Splitting hairs but I'd have Mumm or Douglas on the bench with Vickerman starting, Pat McCutcheon vs Ben Mowen is line ball, and I'd play Horne, Holmes or Cross before Carter at 12, with BKH at 13 if Horne moves in. But that team could win the first S15 final, even against the Crusaders, Bulls or Stormers. Its got a lot of class, everywhere.

 

[Lee Grant]

I rekkon we need to keep starting Mumm and Douglas, Mummsey for his leadership and Douggie so he gets more experience. What one look like a grim lock-stock is now blossoming. Mumm, Douglas, Vickerman, Jowwitt, Caldwell and Dennis are all capable.

Also Vicks is also only with us from round 9.

Vickerman won't be available in Round 9. He's not available until June 2011 and the Pool matches were supposed to be over at the end of May 2011. Being a RWC year, and no inbound tours, 3N will be played in June and part of July with the S15 finals series after that.

If the Tahs make the finals Vickers could play in them but to be considered he will have to get match fit with Sydney Uni first whilst 3N is on.

PS One of the negatives of the return of Vickerman is that it may take a spot away from Greg Peterson in 2012. We can't afford to lose this young man; for he and Douglas, both capable of playing on the TH side, could form the Tahs 2nd row long term.

Both Jowitt, with his season long injury this year, and Caldwell with his unfortunate illness, will be very nervous with a quartet of Vickerman, Mumm, Douglas and Peterson in prospect for the Tahs in 2012.

Maybe 19 y.o. Peterson is not as good as I think he is, but if I am right and he is not elevated to be a S15 contracted player in 2012, he will go elsewhere to earn a living. If he gets to the same level as Douglas is now at that time it he will have to be starting somewhere to be considered for national squads.

 

[Gnostic]

My preliminary 22.

1. Robinson
2. TPN
3. Baxter
4. Mumm
5. Douglas
6. McCutcheon
7. Waugh
8. Palu
9. Burgess
10. Barnes
12. Holmes
13. Horne
11. Mitchell
14. Turner
15. Beale

16. Fitzpatrick
17. Ryan
18. Peterson
19. Dennis
20. Hangers
21. BKH
22. Carter

This is based on current form and S14 form of this year. May well change before the start of the S15. IMO having either Carter or Cross at 12 will kill any attack at all. Holmes is a very solid option at 12, can run, pass and is a great defender and has played 12 extensively. Unorthodox to start your 9 cover but it gives better options for the bench. The biggest issue IMO is 13. If Horne gets broken again we will have Cross there and he has gone backwards a long way after his first season.

 

[Gnostic]

Vickerman won't be available in Round 9. He's not available until June 2011 and the Pool matches were supposed to be over at the end of May 2011. Being a RWC year, and no inbound tours, 3N will be played in June and part of July with the S15 finals series after that.

If the Tahs make the finals Vickers could play in them but to be considered he will have to get match fit with Sydney Uni first whilst 3N is on.

PS One of the negatives of the return of Vickerman is that it may take a spot away from Greg Peterson in 2012. We can't afford to lose this young man; for he and Douglas, both capable of playing on the TH side, could form the Tahs 2nd row long term.

Both Jowitt, with his season long injury this year, and Caldwell with his unfortunate illness, will be very nervous with a quartet of Vickerman, Mumm, Douglas and Peterson in prospect for the Tahs in 2012.

Maybe 19 y.o. Peterson is not as good as I think he is, but if I am right and he is not elevated to be a S15 contracted player in 2012, he will go elsewhere to earn a living. If he gets to the same level as Douglas is now at that time it he will have to be starting somewhere to be considered for national squads.

Peterson has been very good in a dominant Manly pack. I am not sold on Vickerman, if he really wanted to get back for the RWC he should have been laying this year. However it is just possible Deans has done one of his selection brain snaps and guaranteed a spot to him as he has appears to have done for a couple of current members.

 

[MrTimms]

GIANT Southern Districts second rower Sita Timani hopes to celebrate his return from injury against Eastern Suburbs today at Forshaw Rugby Park by signing a contract with the NSW Waratahs next week.

Timani will start off the bench, after missing the past six weeks with injury, while fellow back rower Rome Nifo goes straight into the pack.
<snip>
Souths' recruitment manager Max Currie confirmed Timani is expected to sign a contract with the Waratahs, joining fellow back rower Kane Douglas in the Super 15 outfit.

From this article

How good is Timani?

Lee, Not sure what that means for Peterson, or has he signed too?

 

[Eyes and Ears]

My preliminary 22.

1. Robinson
2. TPN
3. Baxter
4. Mumm
5. Douglas
6. McCutcheon
7. Waugh
8. Palu
9. Burgess
10. Barnes
12. Holmes
13. Horne
11. Mitchell
14. Turner
15. Beale

16. Fitzpatrick
17. Ryan
18. Peterson
19. Dennis
20. Hangers
21. BKH
22. Carter

This is based on current form and S14 form of this year. May well change before the start of the S15. IMO having either Carter or Cross at 12 will kill any attack at all. Holmes is a very solid option at 12, can run, pass and is a great defender and has played 12 extensively. Unorthodox to start your 9 cover but it gives better options for the bench. The biggest issue IMO is 13. If Horne gets broken again we will have Cross there and he has gone backwards a long way after his first season.

I think it would be the beginning of the end for Josh Holmes if he was picked at 12. He is a 9 and needs to prove himself there. He was not able to lock down a spot at the Brumbies over Phibbs, who is far from top quality. He will continue to play 2nd fiddle to Burgess while Burgess stays in the Wallbaies 22. I actually think one of his major issues is that his defence is suspect and I cannot imagine him handling Nonu, Jean de Villers, A.Fainga'a and co.

 

[Gnostic]

Holmes was never really a 9. Whenever Brett Sheehan was available Holmes always played 12 for the Rats. See if you can get some footage of Holmes at 12, defensively he is very good at 12, not the best by a long way but his positioning and technique are good and can be improved. I don't see Holmes having any real chance at 9 for the Tahs, he is not a 9 of consistent S15 standard IMO, but could play 12. The point is that this would allow the Tahs to play an attacking game which having either Carter or Cross at 12 would totally limit. The only other option is to play Hangers at 10 and Barnes at 12, but this does not thrill me as they are too similar.

Burgess is perhaps the best defensive 9 in Oz. His running from 9 is very good when opportunity presents and he can actually pass well when he gets his shit together.

 

[topo]

Holmes was never really a 9. Whenever Brett Sheehan was available Holmes always played 12 for the Rats. See if you can get some footage of Holmes at 12, defensively he is very good at 12, not the best by a long way but his positioning and technique are good and can be improved. I don't see Holmes having any real chance at 9 for the Tahs, he is not a 9 of consistent S15 standard IMO, but could play 12. The point is that this would allow the Tahs to play an attacking game which having either Carter or Cross at 12 would totally limit. The only other option is to play Hangers at 10 and Barnes at 12, but this does not thrill me as they are too similar.

Burgess is perhaps the best defensive 9 in Oz. His running from 9 is very good when opportunity presents and he can actually pass well when he gets his shit together.

The other relevant point is that McKibbin is probably a better "back up" half back than Holmes.

 

[Lee Grant]

From this article

How good is Timani?

Lee, Not sure what that means for Peterson, or has he signed too?

Terry Smith reported this in the programme for the club matches a week ago and I reported it on page 20 of this thread and talked about Sita; so refer to that. Maybe they have another source, but I suspect that they picked up on what Terry wrote earlier.

With the Vickerman news I'm guessing that Timani signing may not happen after all, notwithstanding that Vickers won't be playing in the Super15 next year unless, as I said earlier this afternoon, he gets in match shape with Sydney Uni whist 3N is on, and the Tahs make the finals, which will be after 3N.

Crikey - imagine having Caldwell, Jowitt, Mumm and Douglas all fit and raring to go and Peterson in the professional academy should he be needed. Then in 2012 Vickerman comes on board full time. Somebody will have to go. Timani could be a case of over egging the pudding, though who knows: a couple of injuries could change that thinking.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Holmes was never really a 9. Whenever Brett Sheehan was available Holmes always played 12 for the Rats. See if you can get some footage of Holmes at 12, defensively he is very good at 12, not the best by a long way but his positioning and technique are good and can be improved. I don't see Holmes having any real chance at 9 for the Tahs, he is not a 9 of consistent S15 standard IMO, but could play 12. The point is that this would allow the Tahs to play an attacking game which having either Carter or Cross at 12 would totally limit. The only other option is to play Hangers at 10 and Barnes at 12, but this does not thrill me as they are too similar.


Burgess is perhaps the best defensive 9 in Oz. His running from 9 is very good when opportunity presents and he can actually pass well when he gets his shit together.

What do you mean - he was never a 9? He has signed 3 professional contracts - Tahs, ACT, then Tahs again - as a 9. He played a handful of games at 12 last year as he left Eastwood mid-season to play with his brother at the Rats. As a result, he made way for Sheehan. This year, Sheehan has moved to 10 (when not suspended) so that Holmes can play 9. IMO, Holmes has no rep future in any other position than 9.

 

[Gnostic]

What do you mean - he was never a 9? He has signed 3 professional contracts - Tahs, ACT, then Tahs again - as a 9. He played a handful of games at 12 last year as he left Eastwood mid-season to play with his brother at the Rats. As a result, he made way for Sheehan. This year, Sheehan has moved to 10 (when not suspended) so that Holmes can play 9. IMO, Holmes has no rep future in any other position than 9.

I mean in the way he plays, his skill set and where IMO he can play his best Rugby.

The best analogy I can give is Giteau. He has been signed as a 10 at both Province and Test level and he is clearly not a 10.

 

[Lee Grant]

I mean in the way he plays, his skill set and where IMO he can play his best Rugby.

That is not as silly as it may sound to some, given that he has indeed been given so may S14 contracts as a scrummie.

I remember crowing about him as a schoolboy player in 2004 and how he had the attributes to play in other positions. Then 2 years later I saw him in an Oz U/21 trial game against the NSW Academy at Victoria Barracks and I crowed that though he started at scrummie he was bossing Lealiifano to pass the ball from the ruck to him at 1st receiver, so confident was he, then later, after Hickey had rested him, he came back to play on the wing. In that position he had a long run at top pace along touch and when defenders came over to him he gave a 20M pass inside to somebody to score.

His pro future was obviously open ended - what a player he would be for the Tahs - and, who knows, the Wallabies?

Afterwards, I saw him play a few games for the Junior Tahs and later for the Rats before he went to Eastwood. One day I saw the Beasts scrummie, a chap called Luke Burgess, running rings around him. Holmes was too languid as a scrummie, too slow to pick up the ball, too late to pass it and too late for other things - all attributes later ascribed to Burgess.

The penny dropped that he had a lot of things to work on but when I saw him in the APC (remember that?) nothing much had changed; and not a lot has changed since.

Now I see his value at the S15 level as a back who can give a coach the opportunity to play a 5/2 reserve split - quite a fall from my earlier expectations for him.

That's a negative post about a youngish player. More positively: what he needs is a specialist coach to get him to get his outside foot opposite the ball so he doesn't have to take a step - just to sweep the ball off the deck. Also to do everything he does with dispatch and not worry about sniping until later in the game after he has racked up a catalogue of swift passes.

I am appalled that this talented player has not been taken in hand by coaches of pro teams. What I see is so obvious to me, though just as obviously, not to others.

.