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Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
I have said the same thing about Elsom and Vickerman, yet for some reason people seem to think years past form is reason enough.
Viking
Mark Ella (57)
This is true, but considering how poorly AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is playing and if continues to play poorly then Horne may only have to play one or two good games to be considered. Even if he didnt play the whole season if he plays one good game its still one more then AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). Thats the reason why im still considering Horne as a possibility. (not a certainty, a possibility).
I guess my arguement is (IMO) a player who plays one game a season and that game is a good game is better then a player who plays a whole season of average games. This is especially true when the good game was the most recent game played - like the old saying goes "your only as good as your last game".
Reddy!
Bob Davidson (42)
Yeh I'm sure Deans is going to easily look over the fact that Pocock was probably one of the top 3 players in the world in 2010.
Reddy!
Bob Davidson (42)
I agree with this, and particularly applies to incumbents or the extra special players.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
But... But... But...
HE HASN'T PLAYED THIS YEAR?!?!?!?!
Ha...
I'm sure Gnostic wouldn't have picked Larkham for the 1999 RWC either...
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
why do yhou have to be so obstinately beligerant?
The Larkham example is invalid as in 1999 who else was there to play 10?
I have consistantly said that Elsom in particular has never reached his form of pre-ireland, regardless of yours & others fawning adulation of him. There are lots of options available just as good as his most recent form.
vidiot
John Solomon (38)
At the the risk of being pedantic... and using too many full stops...
Pocock HAS played this year... Just not this month...
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
Gnostic, out of interest, who would you have at 6 in preference to Elsom? I look around and the cup doesn't exactly runneth over in that position.
R
Richard D. James
Guest
Still not convinced by Horne. Didn't do much last year in the June tests, then got injured. Obviously he's got a lot of potential but in a world cup I would still want the proven AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
My preferences will be totally different to most as I will be looking for a lot different mode of play to what Deans is seeking. I would pick Dennis or Saffy.
It is interesting that many have been saying since last year that player X,Y,and Z have been out injured and all will be well when they come back. Here we are at the half way mark of the Super season and Lo! significant players are injured, in some cases the saviours who were injured last year. I see the Wallabies going into a RWC in the same position as 1995, with injuries to key players with no real tried and tested "effective" replacements. Think back to 1995 and on the unfit/injured list you have, Willie O, Kearns, Campo, Coker and a few others. This year currently you have in some serious doubt of fitness - TPN, Horne, Palu, Barnes. We are an injury to Horwill and Sharpe to seeing Chisholm starting the RWC as the only really experienced lock, injury to Genia with Burgess the only experienced back-up.
For all the massive improvements in depth we have really seen, few of the depth players have really been tested at the next level.
Godfrey
Phil Hardcastle (33)
It's the same for any team. Top line players get injured and you have to make compromises, that's obvious. Take away players like Dan Carter and Richie McCaw and NZ start looking less unstoppable - and they've both been injured in the near past.
I'm glad to have stand out players and not too worried about desperately pulling negatives out of it. We currently have a number of players in each position who could get the job done. It would take a hell of a lot of injuries before we start embarassing ourselves. Our "realistic" depth in each position, at least the way I see it, is as follows:
Props: Robinson, Slipper, Alexander, Kepu, Palmer, Baxter and even Daley brings something to the table.
Locks: Horwill, Sharpe, Simmons, Chisholm, Mumm all have winning test match experience while AWH, Van, Pyle and Wykes could probably get the job done if those 5 are in the same car accident.
Loose fowards: In terms of players who are often stand-outs in Super Matches we have Pocock, Hodgson, Robinson, McCalman, Palu, Elsom and Brown (test match impact is lacking though). There are others, like Saffy, who many have tipped to have the potential to step up to the plate if required.
Half-Backs: Genia, Burgess, Phipps
Fly-Halves: Cooper, Beale , Giteau and Barnes can all play at 5/8. 3 of them have won their share of test-matches there.
Inside Centre: Barnes, Giteau, JOC (James O'Connor), Fainga'a, Harris are all capable of playing this position at Test level in my opinion. Then add in different styles of inside centre like Mortlock, Carter etc and we definitely have options.
Outside Centre: AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Ioane, Horne would all be excellent choices.
Wings: Ioane, Mitchell, Davies, Morahan, Turner, McCabe, JOC (James O'Connor)
Fullback: Beale, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor), McCabe, Morahan
I know some of the above are listed and obviously they are not all first choice - but my point is that we do have decent depth and all of the players mentioned above could conceivably play some pretty decent Test football.
I'm glad to have stand out players and not too worried about desperately pulling negatives out of it. We currently have a number of players in each position who could get the job done. It would take a hell of a lot of injuries before we start embarassing ourselves. Our "realistic" depth in each position, at least the way I see it, is as follows:
Props: Robinson, Slipper, Alexander, Kepu, Palmer, Baxter and even Daley brings something to the table.
Locks: Horwill, Sharpe, Simmons, Chisholm, Mumm all have winning test match experience while AWH, Van, Pyle and Wykes could probably get the job done if those 5 are in the same car accident.
Loose fowards: In terms of players who are often stand-outs in Super Matches we have Pocock, Hodgson, Robinson, McCalman, Palu, Elsom and Brown (test match impact is lacking though). There are others, like Saffy, who many have tipped to have the potential to step up to the plate if required.
Half-Backs: Genia, Burgess, Phipps
Fly-Halves: Cooper, Beale , Giteau and Barnes can all play at 5/8. 3 of them have won their share of test-matches there.
Inside Centre: Barnes, Giteau, JOC (James O'Connor), Fainga'a, Harris are all capable of playing this position at Test level in my opinion. Then add in different styles of inside centre like Mortlock, Carter etc and we definitely have options.
Outside Centre: AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Ioane, Horne would all be excellent choices.
Wings: Ioane, Mitchell, Davies, Morahan, Turner, McCabe, JOC (James O'Connor)
Fullback: Beale, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor), McCabe, Morahan
I know some of the above are listed and obviously they are not all first choice - but my point is that we do have decent depth and all of the players mentioned above could conceivably play some pretty decent Test football.
I have many problems with Saffy or Dennis pulling on the Wallaby 6 shirt. Principle among them is the fact that we desperately need big ball running forwards, even more so when Palu isn't there. Neither Saffy nor Dennis fit that bill- they are workhorses. If Elsom is out I would like to see McCalman at 6, or maybe Horwill with Simmons coming in to the second row.
In what promises to be yet another forward-dominated RWC we need plenty of options to get us over the advantage line. I am not sure Saffy and Dennis offer that.
In what promises to be yet another forward-dominated RWC we need plenty of options to get us over the advantage line. I am not sure Saffy and Dennis offer that.
Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
I think I agree with this analysis, but its not a phenomenon confined to Australian teams. Across the dutch, now that Slade is injured the All Blacks are one injury to Carter from having to play Brown or the Duck at 10. There's a lot of Kiwis not getting a lot of sleep right now because of that (including the Troika). After the invisible man there is only Braid who would be considered a proven 7 at that level. Over in saffer land Becker has really had little international experience behind Matfield, Brussow is their only fetcher and their back-up to FdP doesn't even play there in the Super comp.
When you get a marquee player like Carter, McCaw, Matfield, FdP or like Gregan and Larkham if you go back a bit for us, the temptation for a coach is to use that brilliance because of the huge advantage it gives your team. Its a temptation almost impossible to resist. I don't think I can name an international coach that hasn't succumbed, though that may be ignorance on my part.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Obviously I'm joking about Pocock, but I'm just a little tired of seeing Gnostic's repeated personal vendetta towered Elsom...
If were judging players on their most recent form than Elsom was one of the Wallabies best forwards last year and was in good shape for the latter part of the tri nations when australia played their best games, and on the eoyt...
There hasnt really been any other 6s to come out yet and prove themselves to be any better...
If Elsom does come back and is shown to be unfit and out of sorts than that's one thing...
TPN is always injured but we never doubt his place?
If pocock had not played a game sine France would we be discounting his place so furiously?
I doubt it...
If were judging players on their most recent form than Elsom was one of the Wallabies best forwards last year and was in good shape for the latter part of the tri nations when australia played their best games, and on the eoyt...
There hasnt really been any other 6s to come out yet and prove themselves to be any better...
If Elsom does come back and is shown to be unfit and out of sorts than that's one thing...
TPN is always injured but we never doubt his place?
If pocock had not played a game sine France would we be discounting his place so furiously?
I doubt it...
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Slim 293;231086[B said:
You should be a bit careful of making accusations about me having personal motives. I do not and never make anything comment on the individuals personally or for that matter on any other poster.
If TPN hadn't played this year, sure his place would be and should under threat, IMO. Hanson and Whitaker and Charles for that matter have all played well, Hanson in particular.
Pocock has played this year if griefly and all was as usual with him. With Hodgeson out the only other contender IMO is Robinson. C. Fainga'a and Hooper are 12 months away IMO.
So as things stand if Pocock is 100% and the team needs picking tomorrow he gets the nod, if not Robinson is in the box seat.
Not too long ago Slim you and a few others were telling all and sundry that Alexander was the best THP in Oz and as the incumbeant had to be first picked. How the tide has turned, eh. I on the other have consistently questioned his selection for the reasons now apparent to all. So before you start to question my motives and make basesless allegations go back and at least make a cursory examination of what I have posted and why.
On the same track I find it amazing that certain posters who gushed over AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) for the past 18 months have dumped him so thoroughly with the perception that he is out of form. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is consistant, he doesn't have the ,assive ups and downs in form that many of the "mercurial" players like Cooper display. I do not believe he is out of form, his lack of impact has been dictated by the lack of any real structure from those inside and the lack of any real threat from those outside him. Hence AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is a fairly easy target for the defence. The fact that he has in most part been reliable in contact and still able to make the gain line proves his worth. I do not think he can be relied upon as the backline fix for the Wallabies though as he is just not quick enough as seen by him getting run down easily by Fruen. I think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) needs to work on his passing and support game and look to play at 12. It won't happen under Deans who is a devotee of the old NZ philosphy of 2 flyhalves (I say old because the ABs haven't played that system since McAlister was playing 12 for them, none of the Super teams use the system anylonger, not even the Crusaders), but I could see it coming in with all the Oz Super Teams.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Maybe 'vendetta' was a bit unfair... but you definitely have a personal obsession with him or you wouldn't post the same attack on him in every single thread...
In regards to Alexander - isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?
He'd come off the back of a NH tour playing TH where he dominated in every match... and at the conclusion of the 2010 Super 14 the only other contenders for the position were Baxter and Weeks...
I think it was a fair assumption for many that if Alexander had got back into the Wallaby program at TH he could've continued his form from the previous year...
Unfortunately injury ruined that chance and he was thrown back into the test arena after a long injury spell, and having played an entire year of rugby in a different position, against the likes of the All Blacks, England, Italy and France...
Maybe things could've been different, but now he's stuck back at LH, and other props have taken their chances...
But it's certainly not a comparable situation to Elsom...
One of our best players... unfortunately has been out injured all year...
It might take him a few games to build up match fitness, but hopefully with the extended Super rugby season he'll get that opportunity in coming weeks...
There are no other real contenders for his spot, and at this stage it's up to him to lose it...
While players should be selected on form, we obviously make concessions for those who are at another level... or rather we give them the benefit of the doubt to prove that...
I think Elsom is one of those players, just like Pocock, Cooper, Beale, Moore, TPN, Robinson, Genia, Horwill etc
In regards to Alexander - isn't hindsight a wonderful thing?
He'd come off the back of a NH tour playing TH where he dominated in every match... and at the conclusion of the 2010 Super 14 the only other contenders for the position were Baxter and Weeks...
I think it was a fair assumption for many that if Alexander had got back into the Wallaby program at TH he could've continued his form from the previous year...
Unfortunately injury ruined that chance and he was thrown back into the test arena after a long injury spell, and having played an entire year of rugby in a different position, against the likes of the All Blacks, England, Italy and France...
Maybe things could've been different, but now he's stuck back at LH, and other props have taken their chances...
But it's certainly not a comparable situation to Elsom...
One of our best players... unfortunately has been out injured all year...
It might take him a few games to build up match fitness, but hopefully with the extended Super rugby season he'll get that opportunity in coming weeks...
There are no other real contenders for his spot, and at this stage it's up to him to lose it...
While players should be selected on form, we obviously make concessions for those who are at another level... or rather we give them the benefit of the doubt to prove that...
I think Elsom is one of those players, just like Pocock, Cooper, Beale, Moore, TPN, Robinson, Genia, Horwill etc
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
It is comparable and it is exactly the point I was making. You have made assumptions that I have if not a "vendetta" it is now a "personal obsession". I actually have a look at the players and how they play not only as individuals but as a part of the whole. Hence why I was able to post against Alexander last year, and I may add you posted similar allegations regarding me then. Forget the excuses regarding him, the issues I posted back then regarded his play on both sides of the scrum. Hindsight has nothing at all to do with it.
Let me summarise my posts re Elsom for you, you will find on review that they are consistent:-
1. He should have had to actually play Super Rugby in Oz before being available for Selection for the Wallabies IMO.
2. He is a poor captain for various reasons.
3. He is not fit and cannot be considered for selection in the Wallabies if he does not play Super Rugby and show significant form as good as his rivals.
4. His form has been nowhere near as good since he returned from the NH. In fact I did suggest a couple of months ago that perhaps this was because he has in fact been carrying the Hammy injury for an extended period. This was on the thread where I suggested that Elsom (once regarded rightly as the best 6 in the world) would be at best 6th or 7th in that spot on last years form.
Let me summarise my posts re Elsom for you, you will find on review that they are consistent:-
1. He should have had to actually play Super Rugby in Oz before being available for Selection for the Wallabies IMO.
2. He is a poor captain for various reasons.
3. He is not fit and cannot be considered for selection in the Wallabies if he does not play Super Rugby and show significant form as good as his rivals.
4. His form has been nowhere near as good since he returned from the NH. In fact I did suggest a couple of months ago that perhaps this was because he has in fact been carrying the Hammy injury for an extended period. This was on the thread where I suggested that Elsom (once regarded rightly as the best 6 in the world) would be at best 6th or 7th in that spot on last years form.
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