Wallabies v All Blacks @ Suncorp - 18/10/14

[I like to watch]

I've actually been putting together an article for the roar about Australian coaches.

McKenzie has coached 9 seasons of Super Rugby. 5 with the Waratahs, and 4 with the Reds.

In that time he has had a team finish outside the Top 6 twice, and outside the finals three times in total.

He coached the Waratahs to 8th, 2nd and runner up, 3rd, 13th and then 2nd and runner up again. He coached the Reds to 5th in 2010, 1st and Champions in 2011, 6th (on points) in 2012, 5th (on points and overall) in 2013.

His biggest failure has been Stade Francais where he was sacked after one season, for finishing 4th in the Top 14 and failing to get past the group stages in the Heinekin Cup. This was drop in success for that team.

McKenzie may very well be the problem, but his coaching record across 2 teams suggests he can coach.

Robbie Deans had a very successful coaching career prior to his Wobblies gig as well.
Maybe it's not the coaches,but our expectations that need adjusting?

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm also of the opinion that former players don't necessarily make good coaches. No former player has ever coached a country to world cup glory. Wonder how former players have faired in other sports as national coaches, particularly football?

I agree with the sentiment but do disagree with the statement. Generally in League and Union, great, or gifted players don't make good coaches.

Some of League's historically best coaches have been decent footballers, but never the best. Bennett was a winger for QLD under residents rules. Gould was an experienced first grader, as was Sheens. Hasler is somewhat of an exception, though he was never a great of the game.

Some of the players that have been more spectacular failures in club coaching are Fittler and Stuart. Exceptional players. But it's difficult to teach players to just turn up and be better.

When we look at Rugby, Cheika and Dwyer were both Randwick players. Link has been successful at provincial level, but once again, he wasn't an exceptional gifted player.

On correlation I've found is that is seems a large number of coaches who ended up performing well in some aspect in the professional ranks had played hooker. The only information I have been able to find was that Henry and White both did, Jones did, Nucifora did, Phil Mooney did as well as a host of others. That may have just been due to the small sample size of what I was looking at though.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Robbie Deans had a very successful coaching career prior to his Wobblies gig as well.
Maybe it's not the coaches,but our expectations that need adjusting?

Obviously Deans is no mug. But you need to look at the environment they have come from to objectively assess it.

The Crusaders have historically been a strong province in NZ rugby. They have remained one of the stronger teams after Deans had left. Were the Crusaders good because of Deans, or was Deans good because of the Crusaders? He never coached anywhere else so it's very hard to judge. But ultimately he can't have been an absolute spastic, otherwise they wouldn't have won 7 titles no matter how strong they are.

Cheika and McKenzie have had levels of success across multiple teams though which I think is an important factor. McKenzie has coached Super Rugby teams to the finals 6 of the 9 years he has coached. That would have been 7 had the 2010 season been under the same structure as the 2011 season.

Cheika has won titles in both hemispheres.

Does it mean they are better than Deans? Not sure, but if you are trying to see how the candidate may perform in a different environment, it gives a good indication. In addition Cheika and McKenzie have shown an ability to get almost immediate improvement out of teams which have performed poorly for consecutive seasons.

 

[Biffo]

you can go way beyond rugby and find a similar story in all football codes.

the blokes who don't make great coaches are those who are naturally gifted "freakish" types to whom playing was very easy.
looking through the records a few years back, i could find only one "outrageously gifted" player who had made is big as a coach in any football code: Johan Cruyff.

the blokes who make it as coaches seem to be those who have played high class football by battling against their own inferior physical attributes by using their brains.
to make it to high class play, these blokes must really think about the game and that is what makes them great coaches.

 

[USARugger]

Some blokes don't even play high class footy at all

Rugby, like anything, can be learned in more than one way. What matters is how dedicated you are to that learning process.

 

[Train Without a Station]

AFL seems to be the only exception to this where a lot of great players have made great coaches

 

[Tangawizi]

Anyone have any ideas for a placard to wave at the game? I think a positive message albeit tongue in cheek, limited to 5 words?

You could do something with an AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) 100th match theme like "Swoop in for a Wallabies win" although Reg's one was good.

 

[Tangawizi]

Anyone know what the pre-match entertainment is besides the NRC match?

Thinking it would be good to have Rupert McCall out on the ground reading out the "Golden Thread" thread while our blokes were warming up. It'd fire up the crowd a bit and maybe the team too.

 

[Braveheart81]

Thinking it would be good to have Rupert McCall out on the ground reading out the "Golden Thread" thread while our blokes were warming up. It'd fire up the crowd a bit and maybe the team too.

Did you tweet something in relation to that earlier today? Always good to put a face to a name (or an actual name to an internet name)!

 

[Tangawizi]

Yeah, not long ago. Rupert thought it was a good idea - he'd probably be at the ground in some capacity anyway.

Doesn't seem to be much of a buzz around town yet for the match. Hopefully that changes tomorrow with a few player appearances etc.

 

[Ulrich]

I agree with the sentiment but do disagree with the statement. Generally in League and Union, great, or gifted players don't make good coaches.

Some of League's historically best coaches have been decent footballers, but never the best. Bennett was a winger for QLD under residents rules. Gould was an experienced first grader, as was Sheens. Hasler is somewhat of an exception, though he was never a great of the game.

Some of the players that have been more spectacular failures in club coaching are Fittler and Stuart. Exceptional players. But it's difficult to teach players to just turn up and be better.

When we look at Rugby, Cheika and Dwyer were both Randwick players. Link has been successful at provincial level, but once again, he wasn't an exceptional gifted player.

You're correct. I should probably have been more specific about my statement over players being coaches. So here goes again:

Coaches who have represented their national team as players once rarely make for good coaches. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, particularly further back in history I suspect. Danie Craven comes to mind.

In due time we'll see if Fourie du Preez will be a good coach. He's been an awesome player, world's best in his position at times and a master tactician who is often described as a coach on the field. He has also mentioned he'd like to coach one day (probably alongside Matfield I guess). We'll see then how he turns out.

There are some real failures from past Boks as coaches in Harry Viljoen and Rudolf Straeuli. England have suffered under Martin Johnson recently (why they threw him straight into head of the national team is beyond me).

The verdict is still out on McKenzie. I don't doubt his tactical nous at all but I wonder if he has the complete set of attributes required for the role. Some are better doing work behind the scenes. Others make full use of the expertise available to them - I believe Meyer to be more of an overseer in the current Bok setup, keeping tabs. The real coaching is orchestrated by Johan van Graan and co. Meyer has admitted as much last season and a recent exploitation of van Graan's analytical credentials were published on Supersport. The ball-boy from the Bulls seems to be adept at coaching due to the homework he does. From forwards coach to attack coach and we all thought HM was crazy appointing him as attack coach. He is credited for the outstanding lineout exploitations carried out by Matfield.

Your assessment about hookers being good coaches is interesting. My knowledge of the rest of the playing nations is not so great going back in history. I think it's a topic worth visiting.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

you can go way beyond rugby and find a similar story in all football codes.

the blokes who don't make great coaches are those who are naturally gifted "freakish" types to whom playing was very easy.
looking through the records a few years back, i could find only one "outrageously gifted" player who had made is big as a coach in any football code: Johan Cruyff.

the blokes who make it as coaches seem to be those who have played high class football by battling against their own inferior physical attributes by using their brains.
to make it to high class play, these blokes must really think about the game and that is what makes them great coaches.

I can think of a few (Leigh Matthews, Kevin Sheedy, Franz Beckenbauer for example) who were super stars as players as well as coaches, but the main thrust of your point is on the money.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I can think of a few (Leigh Matthews, Kevin Sheedy, Franz Beckenbauer for example) who were super stars as players as well as coaches, but the main thrust of your point is on the money.

Michael Voss is a great example of a champion player (although he never played for Australia) who was a shit coach

 

[ACT Crusader]

TWAS - Deans had success at Canterbury in the late 90s when the NPC was far more superior than what it is today. I'll never forget the 97 win over the Orcs. A monkey off the back, one that had been there forever. We won the final that year also.

In terms of coaching, he held that gig until getting the head coach role for the Saders in 2000. Did that for a couple of years and then was appointed an assistant at the ABs under Mitchell. But was also the Saders team manager from 98 when Smithy was head coach.

He's had mixed success but that 97 NPC title is one that really put Deans on the map. Many hailed him (rightly or wrongly) as a "saviour" given Canterbury hadn't tasted title success for years. Hadn't even made an NPC final for years.

 

[Scoey]

I am an example of a below average player that was a very below average coach. I'm not sure if that's relevant though? Back to the game but.....

Has the AB's 23 been named yet?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Oddly it's a rarity in AFL.

John Longmire, John Worsfold, Paul Roos, Leigh Matthews, Kevin Sheedy, Malcolm Blight were all great players.

Even players like Chris and Brad Scott played around 200 AFL games in their career.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Scoey - we don't usually name until Thursday

 

[Train Without a Station]

He's had mixed success but that 97 NPC title is one that really put Deans on the map. Many hailed him (rightly or wrongly) as a "saviour" given Canterbury hadn't tasted title success for years. Hadn't even made an NPC final for years.

Had they been a strong region in the decade or so leading up?

Still, they're most successful period in Super Rugby was when he was coach.

At the very worst, he has been able to get the best out of a team that previously failed to deliver.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'd like to have a read once you're done. A recent article on Stuff.co.nz (I blieve it was) mentioned how it's the teachers that make the best coaches.

Some teachers who had variable degrees of success as national coaches:

• Bob Dwyer - World Cup Winner [EDIT: Seems he was a teacher, yes]
• Eddie Jones - World Cup Finalist / Winner as Assistant [EDIT: Verified that he was indeed a teacher at some point - Wikipedia]
• Graham Henry - World Cup Winner [EDIT: Yes, we knew that]
• Jake White - World Cup Winner. [EDIT: Yes, we knew that]

That is if the article I read recently is correct in stating Bob and Eddie were also teachers at some point, I have no idea if that is correct, but if it is it makes for an interesting case as well.

Not to mention Alan Jones, who was a teacher prior to coaching the Wallabies.

 

[Quick Hands]

Robbie Deans had a very successful coaching career prior to his Wobblies gig as well.
Maybe it's not the coaches,but our expectations that need adjusting?

Or something deeply embedded in the the rugby system in Australia which doesn't deliver enough depth (including enough depth with the right attitude) to the national coach.