Wallabies 2012 Championship Squad

[Scotty]

Nice stats barbar. Simmons was near-invisible on the weekend and given a fairly early break. AWH just kept popping up. Can you guys put him on the podcast more often? Brings out his best!

To be fair to Simmons, he was playing injured (not expected to play at all until thursday or friday), and he only played around 60 minutes.

 

[Bowside]

Also to be fair to simmons, while he is no Brad Thorn around the field, he is very good in the line out. Whether we need to pick good lineout locks, when we have competent jumpers like Higgers, Mowen and Dennis in the backrow is another question that needs to be asked though.

 

[What2040]

Rugby Stats: Reds tight 3 made 30 tackles and missed 4 - Tahs: made 10 tackles and missed 6 - says a lot to me

Scoey - think your 6 qualities are right but to put them in order is too hard - ofetn very dependant upon each other

 

[waratahjesus]

Rugby Stats: Reds tight 3 made 30 tackles and missed 4 - Tahs: made 10 tackles and missed 6 - says a lot to me

That the Tahs ran at the reds forwards a lot more in tight situations?
That the Tahs or earshot caught out wide and isolated?
That the reds forwards worked harder?
That the Tahs had less work to do in defense?
That the Tahs were predictable
That the reds forwards only maintained the area around the ruck
Etc etc

It says heaps, all speculation unless you deconstruct every aspect of the game frame by frame to determine why and how.

 

[Scoey]

Scoey - think your 6 qualities are right but to put them in order is too hard - ofetn very dependant upon each other

Yeah that was really my point. A lot of people will argue that Player X should be the starting lock due to thier breakdown work, where others will prefer Player Y because of thier lineout ability etc. It's apples and oranges really and so very hard to compare players across so many key qualities or skill sets. Then you have that extra quality that Sita possesses which is sheer bulk.

There are trade offs with most players. Rarely will you get a player that shines in every aspect of thier position. Which lock starts will depend on the other players picked in the forward pack and the role that RD wants them to play.

 

[Braveheart81]

Rarely will you get a player that shines in every aspect of thier position.

We just need to work out how to clone John Eales.

 

[TOCC]

As several people have pointed out, Simmons has a bad habit of being an absolute passenger every now and again. When we don't have a standout player, we're probably going to have to settle for consistency and that doesn't seem to be something that Simmons offers.

Simmons didnt even play 60minutes and was pulled off early because of his injury from the week before...
but never mind those statistics...

 

[TOCC]

Im confused as to what is even been argued here?

Lets not beat around the bush, the Tahs forward have been rubbish all year except for a strong scrum, the front row is strong but the second row and back row play like headless chooks..
Ball handling has been poor, fitness has been terrible, the ball running options at times have been counter productive by allowing the opposition to reset their defence... All in all, you may be able to analyse the stats and say x amount of tackles and x amount of runs means this player is playing well, but thats a very small aspect of the whole picture..

Player need to be coachable, they need to understand the game plan and they need to be willing to adapt on the field to different styles of plays...
The Waratahs forwards have a distinct inability to do this or at least demonstrate the ability to do this.. Its one thing to be a big bloke who can throw other players around, but if you don't play to the game plan then you shouldn't be there..

 

[waratahjesus]

tocc - during the wales tests, they played with a different 7, a weakness in the Tahs pack, a different 2nd row(bar Timani who I agree has selection based on potential not form) & a different 6, does this not cover the problems while still keeping a scrum nucleus together?

Plus I would argue the Tahs forwards have been rubbish, ordinary, good and great, just in patches with no Consistancy.

 

[Richo]

TOCC, I think that's mostly right but that Dennis has been an exception. IMO, the unquestioned standout from the Waratahs and one player who can hold his head up after a disastrous season.

 

[TOCC]

tocc - during the wales tests, they played with a different 7, a weakness in the Tahs pack, a different 2nd row(bar Timani who I agree has selection based on potential not form) & a different 6, does this not cover the problems while still keeping a scrum nucleus together?

Plus I would argue the Tahs forwards have been rubbish, ordinary, good and great, just in patches with no Consistancy.

In 2 of the 3 tests half the pack was non-tahs, in the final test 5 out of the 8 were tahs players...

However your also forgetting the likes of Genia, he barks orders around like tomorrow when playing for the Reds, and during the Wales test series he was also doing the same..
So importantly you have a number 7 leading from the front in defence and a halfback directing the piggies in attack..

Like i said in my initial post, the Tahs front row has been strong all season, but the back row and second row have at times been rubbish and as a collective unit the forward pack have had the tendency to completely lose direction..

Palu is the odd one out in all this, admittedly his performance for the Tahs was hindered by his fitness for the first half of the season, in 6 games he played less then 60min and only once this year he has he played out the whole 80min..Palu is the best number 8 in Australia, but it really hurts a team if you have to pull off such a good player at the 60min each week because his fitness isn't up to it.. Not having a dig, but that is the reality of the situation.

 

[Scott Allen]

Scott: Do you think there could be any credence to the suggestion that when playing for the Wallabies, Timani was instructed to play wider due to his ability to offload?

Your analysis mentions that you see this as the role for a number 6 in the modern game, but if Timani was viewed as the guy most likely to bend the line and get an offload away, do you think he could have been told to play wide?

Higginbotham has clearly already been given this role as he has been at the Reds (otherwise if he was ignoring instructions he wouldn't continue to get picked).

You can't play more than one player wide or you leave yourself short at the breakdown so no, I don't believe Timani could also have been asked to play wide.

 

[Scott Allen]

Taps got about 5 mins in the Tahs game.

All this talk on Locks I think demonstrates one thing. It is very hard to quantify what makes a good lock. They are the eternal "middle child" of a Rugby team. Does anyone care to rank qualities of a "good" lock in order?

I haven't thought about this at all, so it's probably worth saying that these are in no particular order of preference.

1. Lineout ability
2. Scrummaging ability
3. Breakdown work
4. Defence (Tackles made/missed)
5. Ball running ability
6. General fitness
etc.

I say this because, many will have different qualities that they rate highly in thier locks, and will probably make it clearer why their preferred 4/5 combo's are who they are.

Scoey - I like your criteria and the order but think number 6. General fitness is not a seperate criteria but applies to all of the first five.

I don't think lock is a position where the criteria would change much from team to team. Priority with locks will always be 1 and 2. Numbers 6 and 8 will always be your primary ball runners so ball running is not what you select a lock for. Shifting bodies at the breakdown is a big role for locks (Vickerman was excellent in this role) and every forward needs to be able to tackle well. If a lock is playing wide they will not be doing enough of criteria 3 and 4 so hence must play tight.

Size in itself is not a criteria - this is not the Under 13's where you pick the biggest guys to intimidate the opposition.

 

[TOCC]

Joe Tomane is out for the rest of the year.. ankle reconstruction...

Shipperly is practically guaranteed selection now one must imagine...

 

[Ash]

Deans may take Mitchell and Turner still.

With JOC (James O'Connor), AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Digby, Mitchell and Turner available Deans may not take Shipperley. I doubt Mitchell is ready, and Turner definitely isn't, but I wouldn't put it past Deans.

 

[Groucho]

The wisdom of Dwyer's words are underlined by our predicament

"You can’t win without good players, but you can lose with them. This is where the coach comes in."

All of these players mentioned could perform above their Super form, if in a team surrounded by the best players in our country, and supported by quality coaching which includes a firm game plan. Example: What could someone like Jake White get out of these players, even those that we aren't sure deserve there spot in the squad? I'm sure that under Jake, a player like Timani would have had it known to him that he was under pressure to hold his position, based on his previous test performances, and given guidance on what needed to improve, and how to go about it.

What we all must understand, is that in all likelihood, these players are mystified as we are under the Deans coaching system. And the frustration we feel in the selections may be due to the fact that we see little chance of beating NZ in the near future.

We beat them twice last year.

 

[TOCC]

Deans may take Mitchell and Turner still.

With JOC (James O'Connor), AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Digby, Mitchell and Turner available Deans may not take Shipperley. I doubt Mitchell is ready, and Turner definitely isn't, but I wouldn't put it past Deans.

Mitchell and Turner possibly for later in the tour...
i highly doubt Mitchell will be considered to start for the Rugby Championship without first getting some decent time under his belt at club level..
JOC (James O'Connor) is in a similar boat, expected to miss the first couple of weeks i believe.

 

[Richo]

Mitchell and Turner possibly for later in the tour.
i highly doubt Mitchell will be considered to start for the Rugby Championship without first getting some decent time under his belt at club level..
JOC (James O'Connor) is in a similar boat, expected to miss the first couple of weeks i believe.

Agree. There were flashes of the old Mitchell over the last couple of weeks, but he seems about 50% back. Ditto for Turner - and with him it's 50% of a lot less. By contrast, Shipperly is on fire. Hopefully Deans sees sense.

 

[fatprop]

Like i said in my initial post, the Tahs front row has been strong all season, but the back row and second row have at times been rubbish and as a collective unit the forward pack have had the tendency to completely lose direction..

Palu is the odd one out in all this, admittedly his performance for the Tahs was hindered by his fitness for the first half of the season, in 6 games he played less then 60min and only once this year he has he played out the whole 80min..Palu is the best number 8 in Australia, but it really hurts a team if you have to pull off such a good player at the 60min each week because his fitness isn't up to it.. Not having a dig, but that is the reality of the situation.

Like hookers, locks and props getting a good 50 or 60 minutes and then rolling on a unit who can make a difference isn't a bad option, in some teams it is actually budgeted for. The challenge with the Tahs, especially in the back row, was the reserves were so patchy. They often added nothing but penalties and they lost momentum when the reserves came on.

Compare that to say the Reds of 2011 where the reserves made outstanding contributions, especially last year with guys like Samo & AWH often doing 30 minute cameos that were game changing.

Now Deans's use of the bench (or lack of use of it) is another problem, actually my biggest problem with him.

 

[barbarian]

By contrast, Shipperly is on fire. Hopefully Deans sees sense.

Really? The guy is playing OK, but he is just a finisher. A good finisher, sure, but I don't think his form is exceptional at the moment.

I can't see him in the starting XV to be honest. With Beale fit Deans would be looking at Digby on one wing, and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/JOC (James O'Connor) on the other. If there are injuries then Ships may come into it, but so will Mitchell and Cummins.
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