Wallabies 2012 Championship Squad

[Braveheart81]

On the flip side the players you name above have been tried for some time at test level, and collectively as a team they aren't up too it. Their performances wouldn't suggest they are any superior to the alternatives.

This argument would seem to follow the line that the only way to be 'up to it' is to be better than the All Blacks.

Considering our players on the whole aren't better than the All Blacks, it seems to create a bit of a false expectation that effectively says none of our players are good enough to be there even though they've maintained the position as the second ranked team in the world.

We still beat Wales 3-0 which is a very good result no matter how you look at it.

 

[Jiggles]

So what are we arguing about? I was only disputing Ruggo's earlier notion that the Wallaby backline should be the Reds 9, 10, 12, 13 and 14 plus Beale and JOC (James O'Connor).
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That the incumbents haven't set the world alight, and havent for 2 or 3 years now, so its time to try something new.

 

[Jiggles]

This argument would seem to follow the line that the only way to be 'up to it' is to be better than the All Blacks.

Well if you don't want to be the best in the world, whats the point then?

 

[Braveheart81]

That the incumbents haven't set the world alight, and havent for 2 or 3 years now, so its time to try something new.

None of the contenders have set the world alight at Super Rugby level either. There isn't exactly anyone bashing down the door to be selected.

 

[barbarian]

That the incumbents haven't set the world alight, and havent for 2 or 3 years now, so its time to try something new.

But wait, you just said you wouldn't pick Harris? Just trying to work out what you are arguing.

I dislike this idea that if the current guys aren't 'setting the world alight' then we should toss them out and replace them with someone, anyone, in the hope they do better.

If this change is based on some sort of evidence (ie they are outstanding at Super level) then I can cop it. But simply saying "McCabe hasn't been brilliant, let's try Mike Harris!" shits me.

Test rugby isn't some trial and error process where you rotate through players until one somehow happens to work. You pick your best XV, coach them to the best of your ability and take the results as they come.
.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Test rugby isn't some trial and error process where you rotate through players until one somehow happens to work. You pick your best XV, coach them to the best of your ability and take the results as they come.
.

I guess that's where our opinions differ, on what we consider to be the best XV. I think the best XV comes down to not the best 15 individuals, but which XV combines the best to produce the best performance. As I mentioned with my previous examples of JOC (James O'Connor) and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), you're best player is the best player to pick if he somewhat stifles the team around him. If one backline of lesser quality players, is able to produce better performances than a backline of better quality individual players than they are obviously the best option. Fair enough, this is all subjective and unless we had that same backline play against the exact same test opposition in the same circumstances you can never really know. But when the backline is full of blokes singing from a different hymn sheet it doesn't always work.

Personally I don't agree that it should be the Reds backline plus JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale. I still don't think that Cooper, JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale can all be in the same backline together and function their best.

 

[Scotty]

None of the contenders have set the world alight at Super Rugby level either. There isn't exactly anyone bashing down the door to be selected.

Neither has timani, but you seem to support his selection.

 

[Viking]

The problem with out current black-line is clearly balance. We some very skilled players but with some clear weaknesses that create imbalances. For example Coopers defence, Barnes inability to create width, McCabes lack of distribution etc. So i agree that it is not always productive to pick our "best xv" and hope that works. I much prefer picking a balanced back-line.

I would do this by first picking key players eg Genia, Cooper. Then filling in the positions that best compliment there styles. This method does have a lot of negatives but unfortunately we arent the ABs and our players aren't as well balanced. For me, this problem is mainly due to our unbalanced playmakers eg Cooper and Barnes, this why Id love to see Lealifano at 10 in the wallabies (he is clearly a well-balanced flyhalf).

 

[Scotty]

But wait, you just said you wouldn't pick Harris? Just trying to work out what you are arguing.

I dislike this idea that if the current guys aren't 'setting the world alight' then we should toss them out and replace them with someone, anyone, in the hope they do better.

If this change is based on some sort of evidence (ie they are outstanding at Super level) then I can cop it. But simply saying "McCabe hasn't been brilliant, let's try Mike Harris!" shits me.

Test rugby isn't some trial and error process where you rotate through players until one somehow happens to work. You pick your best XV, coach them to the best of your ability and take the results as they come.
.

My take on the 'just try something different' would be to have McCabe at his likely best long term position - 13. He has the defense, the hard running and the short passing game for 13. He doesn't have much of the kicking and longer passing game that we would like for our 12.

For the first game have Barnes and McCabe as the starting centre with Tapuai on the bench. Taps is probably the only guy at the moment that has the potential to offer us everything we want at 12 - crash balling, stepping, hard defense, excellent passing and good kicking.

 

[Braveheart81]

Neither has timani, but you seem to support his selection.

Only to a degree.

Most of my posts regarding the issue is that there are no outstanding choices to fill the second and third lock positions after Sharpe and I can see why they are interested in Timani (he is huge and he has the ability to offload).

Rob Simmons has played 20 tests now and still hasn't made himself an obvious choice and Pyle and Douglas are in the training squad as well. Clearly this is a troublesome position.

Personally I'd prefer Douglas to get a chance.

 

[Scotty]

Didn't you just argue against the same stance in regard to the centres? Ie the current centres aren't outstanding, but don't change them until there are outstanding super rugby options?

 

[Braveheart81]

I think there is a big difference between a centre pairing with three tests together and a lock who has played 20 tests.

I think a centre pairing's partnership is something that takes longer to build and is more important than a locking partnership.

Putting Timani in for one game hardly causes the disruption that changing your centre pairing causes.

 

[Athilnaur]

That the incumbents haven't set the world alight, and havent for 2 or 3 years now, so its time to try something new.

The current centre pairing didnt start until the RWC, and then with Ant and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) alternating in. Not even vaguely'2 or 3 years ago'.

McCabe started v Samoa and has played every game he was fit for since.

Couple of points I have:
- McCabe is an attacking defender, ie dominant tackles, clear outs etc, and straightens the line, his attack is direct and stops a defense being able to drift
- for those reasons he is the ideal foil for Quade, esp when Quade is such a master of the long pass to mix in other options.

Re Horne like McCabe he is a work in progress. The truth is we don't have a world class centre pair, but what we do have is centres (and here I include Ant) who together make a world class midfield defense, not necessarily the best but in the top few.

Bear in mind even Nonu and Smith had their critics a few years back. Games are won and lost in defense too Jiggles.

 

[Happy]

I think you're dreaming if you think Deans won't have McCabe in the starting team.

 

[barbarian]

My take on the 'just try something different' would be to have McCabe at his likely best long term position - 13. He has the defense, the hard running and the short passing game for 13. He doesn't have much of the kicking and longer passing game that we would like for our 12.

For the first game have Barnes and McCabe as the starting centre with Tapuai on the bench. Taps is probably the only guy at the moment that has the potential to offer us everything we want at 12 - crash balling, stepping, hard defense, excellent passing and good kicking.

I agree with that. I support 'trial and error' within reason, with moving McCabe to 13 as a prime example. Also we would never have played Steve Larkham at 10 if we didn't occasionally take a risk. My point is there is evidence that this move will work at test level, unlike throwing in Mike Harris or Andrew Smith or another untried player.

I am a big Taps fan (I am also a big Tapas fan, but that is another debate), and if he can find some fitness I would love to see him given a shot. Although I struggle to see that happening during the RC, not sure we could ever take the risk, even against the Argies at home.
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[Bowside]

McCabe is not the ideal foil for quade.

Someone with a bit of a kicking game and a precise offload is the ideal foil for quade, so that he take the ball to the line more without having to worry about always being ready for the next phase.

I would say McCabe is the ideal 13 for the wallabies at the moment, especially if we are trailing new/out of form wingers.

I want to see a Tapuai/McCabe pairing until JOC (James O'Connor) is fit again and then slot him in at 12 after that. It may not work but I wouldn't say what we have currently is working either.

 

[Braveheart81]

(I am also a big Tapas fan, but that is another debate).

If the All Blacks pick Weepu and we line him up against Tapas, we'll completely take him out of the game.

 

[Bowside]

On the topic of the squad, Ill hold off judgement too much until the final squad is picked as they have cast the net very wide with this initial squad.

But I dont see any point having Samo there. He is not even a starter at the reds and he has about 15-20 minutes of good rugby in him. I will be even more myfed if they then dont pick him for the final squad, as what is the point of flying a guy who is 38 years old and on the verge of retirement to sydney for 'development' reasons.

The ARU can't stump up the money to develop rugby at the grass roots, yet they will fly samo to the training camp and then cut him from the squad a week later. Just seems like a waste.

 

[Viking]

I want to see a Tapuai/McCabe pairing until JOC (James O'Connor) is fit again and then slot him in at 12 after that. It may not work but I wouldn't say what we have currently is working either.

I do like the sound of a Taps/McCabe centre pairing.

 

[No4918]

Until Tapui gets some fitness and form back i'm more than happy with Barnes at 12. I'll be very surprised if we see Taps play a role in the RC. EOYT probably more likely. Barnes/McCabe have played a few together now so it should not be hard to tweak the combination to suit the new positions.

10. Cooper 12. Barnes 13. McCabe/Finger/Horne/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (in that order)

Most of this discussion seems pointless though. Name your price and i'll take the punt that Deans only sees McCabe as a 12 and we won't see him at 13 this year.