The Wallabies Thread

[Slim 293]

Well if it's not Folau or Beale then who is it?

 

[Braveheart81]

I'd like to see Banks in this initial squad.

They always say there is no substitute for genuine pace and Banks certainly has plenty.

 

[dru]

Foley will be the Wobs 10 for the foreseeable future, he ain't perfect but he is the best 10 we have. So it is not unreasonable to build a side around him that compliments his strengths and covers for his weaknesses

I don't have an issue with this, as long as he stays the best 10 available. My comment was in response to "what's wrong with Hodge". My answer stands, the "problem" lies with Foley and the "not unreasonable" need to "build a team around him".

 

[gel]

Foley is clearly in front of any other 10 at the moment.

That's only based on form, though. Particularly the current form of the other options (or lack of game time).

Edit* - I agree that there are some limitations that come with Foley, but feel that it's just swapping around limitations when picking anyone else unfortunately.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't have an issue with this, as long as he stays the best 10 available. My comment was in response to "what's wrong with Hodge". My answer stands, the "problem" lies with Foley and the "not unreasonable" need to "build a team around him".

This whole Foley needs a playmaking 12 is pretty tired in my opinion.

The Wallabies have largely played with a playmaking 12 for all but a short period under Deans in the last decade.

Every flyhalf option we have has done better when we've had a ball playing 12.

From an international perspective, even the sides with the best 10s are running with a playmaking 12 either in terms of a strong offload game or ball playing more in line with a traditional 10.

Longer term, I don't think what the Wallabies look for in a 12 will change much at all regardless of who is the 10.

 

[dru]

I guess I can't agree with you there BH. It goes to the nub, what is the intended strategy/game plan and how do you align the cattle for it?

WBs I think have been stilted playing two big centres outside of Foley. Works OK with Beale in the back three when his role doubles as second playmaker. But I want that second playmaker somewhere.

It's a truism that all 10s play better behind a pack going forward, but no I don't necessarily agree that all 10s play better inside a playmaker. Quade has played some of his best with big centres coming off his hip. (He also plays better being kept out of the 10-12 channel defence so a game plan must also be built around him.)

Let's talk, say, a back line of Genia-Foley-Hodge-Kurindrani. Would you think it's going to light anything up? Perhaps you do, we'll just have to disagree.

 

[Braveheart81]

It's a truism that all 10s play better behind a pack going forward, but no I don't necessarily agree that all 10s play better inside a playmaker. Quade has played some of his best with big centres coming off his hip. (He also plays better being kept out of the 10-12 channel defence so a game plan must also be built around him.)

When has this happened at test level?

 

[Killer]

WBs I think have been stilted playing two big centres outside of Foley. Works OK with Beale in the back three when his role doubles as second playmaker. But I want that second playmaker somewhere.

yeah I think a pro active, aggressive and play making 12 like Karmichael or meakes takes a lot of pressure off the 10.
Endless good decision making, for 1 person, with the world watching is not going to last. Also makes him predictable.

 

[Ruggo]

Quade has ball playing ability for two and has always played better with a direct 12 who gets that front foot ball by the most direct means possible. It is exactly why Anthony Fainga'a played that way for the Reds and Digby Ioane always had that roving commission to play off his shoulder.

I would love to see Hunt play 12 outside him.

 

[Braveheart81]

Quade has ball playing ability for two and has always played better with a direct 12 who gets that front foot ball by the most direct means possible. It is exactly why Anthony Fainga'a played that way for the Reds and Digby Ioane always had that roving commission to play off his shoulder.

I think that breaks down at test level though.

The bulk of Quade's best test matches have been when he has had a ball playing 12 outside him.

Hunt is aggressive and runs hard and direct but clearly he can be described as a play making 12 rather than a crash ball 12.

I think we would have seen plenty of him at 12 given how good he was in June but unfortunately he's injured.

 

[Ruggo]

This old chestnut of 'test level' is part of the problem. Even before we debate player x vs y we need to play the rugby that suits us regardless of any stereotype of test rugby. Our lack of national coaching policy has really created this.

I like Foley though my issue is this madness of repeating the same things over and expecting a different result. Hodge and Beale at 12 in combination with Foley are things that have been done before with no great result. Meakes is a player who looks to be worth a shot in that 12 position.

Quade and Foley in my view are in the same boat as both have been criticized for their shortcomings when the deep issue has been coaches not constructing sides to complement them.

 

[upthereds#!]

That's a very hard wall you keep banging your noggin against UTR. While I do agree with the sentiment, I can see that there's nothing to be done about it.

Knowing I'm not on my own is comfort enough.

 

[Braveheart81]

This old chestnut of 'test level' is part of the problem.

It's relevant here because it is the toughest level to look good at and what we are talking about here.

My comments about Cooper and him being not dissimilar to Foley in that he performs best when he has a playmaking 12 outside him at test level are based on my observations of when he has played his best test rugby.

There seems to be this sentiment that Cooper has excelled without a play making 12 outside him but the evidence at test level is to the contrary.

 

[I like to watch]

When has this happened at test level?

It happened plenty of times.
His problem at Test level was that his error count was too high, and he was defensively weak.
But he created plenty of opportunities.

 

[wamberal]

Cooper at his best, is sensational, does some amazing things.


Who could ever forget his effort against Italy in what was (IIRC) his first Test match. Won the game in the closing seconds with a stunning burst through a lot of defense.


But that was then, this is now. He is sadly past it. Maybe okay off the bench, but not a chance to start again against the Darkness. It would not be fair to him, and certainly would not be fair to us long-suffering
Wobbsters.

 

[Braveheart81]

It happened plenty of times.
His problem at Test level was that his error count was too high, and he was defensively weak.
But he created plenty of opportunities.

I don't disagree that he created plenty of opportunities.

I challenge someone to go through his best test matches and look who played 12. I guarantee the bulk of them are with a ball playing 12 outside him.

 

[Lee Enfield]

In my opinion, Quade's best performances at test level came with To'omua at 12. I think that Hunt at 12 or possibly Hodge, would be a good fit outside him.

Hunt is a lot like To'omua, hard straight running, hard tackling, with the ability to play make and distribute the ball.

 

[Braveheart81]

In my opinion, Quade's best performances at test level came with To'omua at 12. I think that Hunt at 12 or possibly Hodge, would be a good fit outside him.

Hunt is a lot like To'omua, hard straight running, hard tackling, with the ability to play make and distribute the ball.

I agree. He has gone well with To'omua outside him. That was the situation in the 2013 Dunedin Bledisloe game where Quade played very well and most of the 2013 EOYT.

Prior to To'omua there were a number of strong performances where he had Giteau or Barnes outside him. I think the partnership with Barnes in particular produced some notable performances.

The only period of his test career where we weren't operating with a ball playing 12 were generally through 2011 which is not noted as a time where Quade produced good test form and also was a period where the Wallabies didn't score a lot of tries.

 

[I like to watch]

I don't disagree that he created plenty of opportunities.

I challenge someone to go through his best test matches and look who played 12. I guarantee the bulk of them are with a ball playing 12 outside him.

I'm not sure who was there when he played his best.
But in support of your statement, I recall many posters were calling for a ball playing 12 to 'help QC (Quade Cooper) out'
So he obviously had an ordinary sequence of games with a ball running 12.

 

[fatprop]

Foley is clearly in front of any other 10 at the moment.

That's only based on form, though. Particularly the current form of the other options (or lack of game time).

Edit* - I agree that there are some limitations that come with Foley, but feel that it's just swapping around limitations when picking anyone else unfortunately.

I don't know of a complete Aus player (and very few test players from any country for that matter)