South African referees want to take action against Bryce Lawrence

[PaarlBok]

Refereeing stocks like teams goes in cycles. Australia had 5 highly rated referees (Erickson, Marhsall, Young, Cole, Dickinson) at one stage. NZ had a strong era with O'Brien, Hawke, Walsh & Bray. SA have had a good run with JK, Lawrence and Joubert. However once JK and Mark retire next year, refereeing might not be so flash in SA (with the exception of Joubert).

Thats where you have it totally wrong. SA structure provide them with a good stream of refs to the top level. Its a bit like trying to compare a big schools rugby team to a small one. If you have the structure and competitions , you should be able to deliver top ones constantly. If you dont have this you may have a few top ones from time to time.

Here is SA Ref panel:

The South African Referees' Association has made known its panels for 2011.

National Panel (In alphabetical order)

Stuart Berry (SARRA), Jason Jaftha (SARRA), Marius Jonker (SARRA), Craig Joubert (SARRA), Jonathan Kaplan (SARRA), Mark Lawrence (SARRA), Pro Legoete (SARRA), Sindile Mayende (SARRA), Jaco Peyper (SARRA), Joey Salmans (SARRA), Lourens van der Merwe (SARRA)

Provincial Panel (In alphabetical order)

Luke Burger (Blue Bulls), Ben Crouse (Blue Bulls), Gerrie de Bruin (Blue Bulls), François Groenewald (Western Province), Quinton Immelman (Western Province), Lusanda Jam (Border), Tiaan Jonker (Golden Lions), Matt Kemp (Western Province), Mlungiseli Mdashe (Valke), November Dilbert (South Western Districts), Rasta Rashivenga (Golden Lions), Archie Sehlako (KwaZulu Natal), Marius van der Westhuizen (Western Province)

Contenders Squad for 2011: Blake Beattie (KwaZulu Natal), Rodney Bonaparte (Eastern Province), Petri Bosch (Western Province), André Botha (Blue Bulls), Tony Correia (KwaZulu Natal), François de Bruin (Griquas), Pieter de Villiers (Golden Lions), Stephan Geldenhuys (Blue Bulls), Hein Gericke (Western Province), C Jadezweni (Western Province), Pieter Janse van Vuuren (Free State), Martin Lekhanye (Free State), Sinethemba Mrulwa (Western Province), Eduan Nel (Golden Lions), François Pretorius (Western Province), Oregopotse Rametsi (Leopards), Andrew Slater (Western Province), Ricus van der Hoven (Pumas), Jaco van Heerden (Blue Bulls), Jan Venter (Blue Bulls)

Of these Stephan Geldenhuys, Jaco van Heerden and Andrew Slater are reserves for the Provincial Panel.

Reserve Contenders : L Bosman (Border), Eugene de Wet (Valke), I Dippenaar (Golden Lions), S du Toit (Leopards), W Esterhuizen (Griffons), D Fortuin (Western Province), Jaco Kotze (Cheetahs), M Mpiti (Western Province)

Women’s Panel (In alphabetical order)

Eska Claasen (South Western Districts), Madel de Villiers (Golden Lions), Eugenia Daniels-Africa (Western Province), Roslyn Fortuin (Boland), Marlize Jordaan (Free State), Sanet Ludick (Leopards), Sipokazi Njani (Border), Ilana Scholtz (Golden Lions), Magda van der Heever (Pumas)

Contenders’/Academy Squad – Women (In alphabetical order)

Renee Daniell (Blue Bulls), Melany Duthie (Boland), Henchalla Oerson (South Western Districts)

Specialised National Assistant Referees Panel (In alphabeticsl order)

Phillip Bosch (Eastern Province), Stefan Breytenbach (Pumas), Christie du Preez (Eastern Province) (IRB Panel ), Johan Greeff (Blue Bulls), Linston Manuels (Boland), Reuben Rossouw (Sharks), Marc van Zyl (Western Province), Cobus Wessels (South Western Districts) (IRB Panel), Fumanekile Yamile (Eastern Province)

Regional Assistant Referees Squad (In alphabetical order)

Attie Buitendach (Blue Bulls), De Goede Haasbroek (Griquas), Sieg van Staden (Valke)

National TMO panel (In alphabetical order)

Gerrie Coetzee (Free State), JC Fortuin (Western Province), Johann Meuwesen (Eastern Province), Shaun Veldsman (Boland)

National Selectors (In alphabeticsl order)

Eugene Daniels (SARRA), Dennis Immelman (Western Province), Willie Roos (Golden Lions), Arrie Schoonwinkel (Free State) (Convener), Banks Yantolo (Border), Balie Swart (SARU)

Balie Swart is the coaches' representative on the referees' selection panel.

National Women’s Match Reviewers & Coaches (In alphabeticsl order)

Eugene Daniels (SARRA), Eugene de Villiers (Golden Lions) (Convener), Dana Eitzen (SARRA), Janse van Vuuren Theuns (Golden Lions)

National Coaches (In alphabeticsl order)

Phillip du Toit (Leopards), JC Fortuin (Western Province), Marius Franken (Western Province), Neville Heilbron (SARRA), Tappe Henning (SARU), Johann Meuwesen (Eastern Province), Theuns Naudé (SARU), Balie Swart (SARRA), Shaun Veldsman (Boland)

National Match Reviewers (In alphabeticsl order)

Gerrit Coetzer (Free State), Keith Hendricks (Boland), Jacques Hugo (Eastern Province), Lusanda Menze (Free State), Thuso Mngqibisa (Western Province), Richard Nash (Border), Allan O’Connell (KwaZulu Natal), Pierre Oelofse (Golden Lions) (Convener)

 

[Scotty]

PS I think Watson is pissed that Bruce made it ahead of Mark and I think this is also a dig at Paddy.

So was Watson out of line? Yes
Should he be taken to task on it? Yes
Is it about time a ref gets taken to task? Yes, you damn bet you. There has been complaining and bitching about refs all over the world for years. What gets really done about it? Nothing. Will this shake things up a little? About time if it does.

We all knew how crap Bryce was prior to the rwc. It is paddy that should be bearing the brunt.

 

[Mank]

Habana should've been carded for a deliberate knock down as well.

Well, this illustrates part of the problem I have, in that people from either side don't seem capable of forming rational and objective opinions. Please rewatch the incident without bias. Quade Cooper passes the ball forward. Habana does knock it down, but the referee blows for the forward pass from QC (Quade Cooper). (edit: what you should be complaining about is Morne Steyn shouldering an Aus player off the ball)

I have tried to stay away from the ref bashing because obviously it's going to be portrayed as sour grapes.

I'd encourage you to read what Watson actually said. Think about it for a minute, and you'll probably realise he hasn't threatened, or done anything untoward, he is acting mostly in the interest of creating a better refereed game, with a side interest of nationalism thrown in. He is South African after all and hence more interested in this performance. See also Umaga's comments.

And also, just to clarify, wasn't it an Australian team who refused to play under a certain ref recently and got their way?

 

[waratahjesus]

Well, this illustrates part of the problem I have, in that people from either side don't seem capable of forming rational and objective opinions. Please rewatch the incident without bias. Quade Cooper passes the ball forward. Habana does knock it down, but the referee blows for the forward pass from QC (Quade Cooper). (edit: what you should be complaining about is Morne Steyn shouldering an Aus player off the ball)

I have tried to stay away from the ref bashing because obviously it's going to be portrayed as sour grapes.

I'd encourage you to read what Watson actually said. Think about it for a minute, and you'll probably realise he hasn't threatened, or done anything untoward, he is acting mostly in the interest of creating a better refereed game, with a side interest of nationalism thrown in. He is South African after all and hence more interested in this performance. See also Umaga's comments.

And also, just to clarify, wasn't it an Australian team who refused to play under a certain ref recently and got their way?

I'm fine with people criticizing refs etc, but when it's teams and officials, for the lov of the sport don't you think sending a letter or arranging a meeting to discuss it is a far better look than giving interviews?

 

[Mank]

I'm fine with people criticizing refs etc, but when it's teams and officials, for the lov of the sport don't you think sending a letter or arranging a meeting to discuss it is a far better look than giving interviews?

Entirely your prerogative to think that way. I happen to think, in the real world, not much will come of this letter. That's not to say I want the opposite end of the spectrum, but what Watson actually said isn't disresctful or harmful to the sport imo.

 

[PaarlBok]

Entirely your prerogative to think that way. I happen to think, in the real world, not much will come of this letter. That's not to say I want the opposite end of the spectrum, but what Watson actually said isn't disresctful or harmful to the sport imo.

He'll be pretty fuck trying to ref in SA in the future. Our lot will boe him out of the park. May fit him.

 

[da_grubster]

I find it quite ironic that Andre watson is leading the charge against Bryce Lawrence here. This is the same Andre Watson that single handedly kept Australia in the 2003 final with his dubious scrum penalties.

There was a big enough outcry even though England won, imagine if they lost!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

We may moan about the refs on here and we may take a few too many personal potshots at one another but I am prepared to vouch that every one of us would not do this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10758927

However bad we thought he was he wasn't cheating. I think the behavior of Watson and the facebook petition signers and the telephone callers is an embarrassing blight on the game.

And this free flowing criticism by powerful men only encourages half witted "fans" to take the view that it open slather.

Paddy O'Brien is nowhere to be seen. No one is offering to defend BL: the poor bugger should be put on suicide watch.

This is not a good look. Much as I have been critical of him and other refs in the past I reckon we, the passionate rugby following public, should take a stand.

 

[Mank]

We may moan about the refs on here and we may take a few too many personal potshots at one another but I am prepared to vouch that every one of us would not do this: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby-world-cup-2011/news/article.cfm?c_id=522&objectid=10758927

However bad we thought he was he wasn't cheating. I think the behavior of Watson and the facebook petition signers and the telephone callers is an embarrassing blight on the game.

Why exactly are you associating Watson with the facebook people? Have you even read this thread? Watson simply stated what will most likely happen, that is the extent of it. I'm confused why people are still trying to portray his comments as something they're not. Do you have an agenda? What about Paddy getting involved in the Clancy video ref decision? Was he also a blight on the game?

The phone calls are a big step too far, the facebook page is just one of those things. I guess they could take it a step further and refuse to play under the ref, right?

Much as I have been critical of him and other refs in the past I reckon we, the passionate rugby following public, should take a stand.

Maybe you can make some armbands, "Justice for Bryce".

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Why exactly are you associating Watson with the facebook people? Have you even read this thread? Watson simply stated what will most likely happen, that is the extent of it. I'm confused why people are still trying to portray his comments as something they're not. Do you have an agenda? What about Paddy getting involved in the Clancy video ref decision? Was he also a blight on the game?

The phone calls are a big step too far, the facebook page is just one of those things. I guess they could take it a step further and refuse to play under the ref, right?



Maybe you can make some armbands, "Justice for Bryce".

It would appear that I have missed the mark: my hopeful expressions of common good will were misplaced. South Africans would clearly prefer that there be attacks on referees.
The refs web site in SA includes thisL http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2807244.htm
The diatribe concludes with this cryptic statement: "did the referee go into the match with a preconceived plan to have few penalties and create a spectacle of free-flowing rugby? If that were the case then it would be folly surely not a part of a top referee's make-up and planning. It is not an honest way to approach a game."
What does this mean? The implication is distasteful in the extreme.

As for Watson's association with the facebook page the only connection I made was the use of a conjunction. But since you ask: it is undoubted that a person in an apparent position of power can influence the attitude of the masses to issues falling within the expertise of the powerful person. Watson is a powerful person and has a substantial pedigree in our game. His statements will influence the masses. It is incumbent upon him as a custodian of the game to exercise the power he has sparingly and only for the good of the game as a whole. if he fails to do so or makes ill judged comments in a charged atmosphere of disappointment he must know that it will be seen by some as carte blanch. It is not to be forgotten that a South African invaded the pitch and attacked a referee during a test match. The referee required surgery, as I recall it, for a seriously damaged shoulder.

With that background he says the following:
1. "His opening game [at the World Cup] was outstanding, I had no problem with his appointment": thereby, according to orthodox psychological analysis, implicitly establishing his neutrality but also his authority to express views on any topic relating to refereeing.

2. "but (in the quarterfinal) he allowed a free-for-all, giving (David) Pocock a field day": the criticism - not put in the passive mood but as a positive action on BL's part: he allowed a field day.

3. "Watson believes the Kiwi whistleblower...will be punished in some way": so here is a man who has sought to establish his neutrality to lend more apparent weight to his opinions on the subject, who nominates the failing (not a failing he would have predicted, it appears) and then sugests, based on his vast experience and with the voice of authority (as discussed), that he will be punished. The consequence is that a self proclaimed disinterested bystander has expressed a view as to what should happen to him.

4. "He will be punished, but that's up to the IRB (International Rugby Board). I do not believe we will see him in any Rugby World Cup again": by which he reiterates his view as to the sanction and supplies his impramatur to banning BL...and what was the expressed aim of the facebook site? Correct.

5. "It's done and dusted now, but we (South African referees association) will be taking action. We want to make sure it doesn't happen again.": just to make it crystal clear, whatever the IRB does the SA refs will be taking some action because that is what is justified. one is left wondering how a referees association can get itself involved in an issue stemming from the result achieved by the national team in circumstances where non-neutral refs will be officiating in SA in the S15......hardly a good look.

This is known in politics a "dog whistling" As history shows there is no accounting for what Saffers will do if they think they have been or are being wronged. Watson knew this and by his own statements indicates a clear intention to do something about on behalf of the SA refs - what legitimate interest do they have in the honest performance of a ref from another association? None.

My agenda is to try and see to it that we dont finish up like South American soccer.

 

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

Absolute bollocks. We may have had our hands in the ruck for too long, they may have been holding onto it for too long. They were going in off their feet. The game played out that way what does he do? Blow the whistle every 2 seconds. YEah that would have been awesome to watch.

 

[brokendown]

the way things are panning out,it looks like Joubert will be almost obliged to blow his whistle in the first ruck.The question is:who will be penalised;Sir Richie,or Sir David?

 

[high tower]

Entirely your prerogative to think that way. I happen to think, in the real world, not much will come of this letter. That's not to say I want the opposite end of the spectrum, but what Watson actually said isn't disresctful or harmful to the sport imo.

Sorry, original point of the thread was that a referee is considered to be neutral, when one referee is highly critical of another over the handling of a game which involved the critical referee's country you have to wonder how he was ever able to see himself as neutral.

 

[Gnostic]

I said it two years ago and got howled down by a few Kiwis. My question then and it remains pertinent today, WTF has Obrien done to develop referees at the international level. What mechanisms has he put in place to ensure that referees are given the best support and mentoring possible to prevent this sort of rubbish?

Answer:- Nothing of any substance. This case highlights the failure of O'Brien simply by the fact that most here can nominate game after game where Lawrence refereed as he did last week. Why was he then selected for the RWC? Why if he is deemed test standard weren't these failings addressed through training and mentoring. O'Brien has spouted on and on about performance reviews at different times but they do nothing if the review doesn't actually lead to improvements in performance.

As an individual I feel sorry for Lawrence as he is being personally attacked for his professional failings after being put in a position beyond his current capabilities. It is true as things stand I don't want to ever see him in charge of a test again, Wallabies involved or not. However should he rectify his issues and prove such at a lower level by all means he should be welcomed back (though many small minded individuals will harp on about - remember when.......). The real bile and invective should be directed not at Bryce Lawrence but at those in charge of his training/development and selection which put an obviously unqualified person in a position to fail. Those individuals are truly culpable IMO.

 

[whatty]

the way things are panning out,it looks like Joubert will be almost obliged to blow his whistle in the first ruck.The question is:who will be penalised;Sir Richie,or Sir David?

Simple whoever put his hands on or does not release once a ruck is formed. Not rocket science.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Thats where you have it totally wrong. SA structure provide them with a good stream of refs to the top level. Its a bit like trying to compare a big schools rugby team to a small one. If you have the structure and competitions , you should be able to deliver top ones constantly. If you dont have this you may have a few top ones from time to time.

Here is SA Ref panel:

The South African Referees' Association has made known its panels for 2011.

National Panel (In alphabetical order)

Stuart Berry (SARRA), Jason Jaftha (SARRA), Marius Jonker (SARRA), Craig Joubert (SARRA), Jonathan Kaplan (SARRA), Mark Lawrence (SARRA), Pro Legoete (SARRA), Sindile Mayende (SARRA), Jaco Peyper (SARRA), Joey Salmans (SARRA), Lourens van der Merwe (SARRA)

Any of the referee associations of the major countries can list their squads like this. That doesn't prove your point that SA produce the best referees in the world. I will acknowledge that the rugby and the competitions that you have are an advantage but I don't believe that it has produced the results that you claim. In looking at your National Panel, it looks pretty light once you take Mark and JK out of it. There will be a need for re-building in a year's time and it would be a bigger problem if Craig was to retire or suffer a serious injury.

 

[maxdacat]

Apparently this random guy, also called Bryce Lawrence who lives in Auckland and has a listed number keeps getting all these irate calls from Saffa rugby fans

 

[PaarlBok]

Any of the referee associations of the major countries can list their squads like this. That doesn't prove your point that SA produce the best referees in the world. I will acknowledge that the rugby and the competitions that you have are an advantage but I don't believe that it has produced the results that you claim. In looking at your National Panel, it looks pretty light once you take Mark and JK out of it. There will be a need for re-building in a year's time and it would be a bigger problem if Craig was to retire or suffer a serious injury.

So you obvious dont get it. Did you ever saw any of the refs just below S15 level reffing? M Lawrense wont stop reffing at S15 or CC level and will be task just to prove you wrong, helping and coaching these younger lot.

SA refs on national level dont help our cause in any way. We are stuck with the NH shite because ONeil and Tew dont have the same structures and competitions bringing refs through. Aus dont have the competitions and have to send them here or to NPC , who draw 7,000 supporters to their final while Aus its club below S15. OurVarsity Cup or schoolboy matches draw more spectators then the NPC. You want them to experiense bigger crowds and live TV to bring them through, no vokken exam paper helps the real thing.

If you dont agree that SA with Watson isnt leading the rugby world in ref standards, your living in a third world of rugby and your talking about ref cycle is nothing more then a pile of bull shite.

 

[PaarlBok]

Apparently this random guy, also called Bryce Lawrence who lives in Auckland and has a listed number keeps getting all these irate calls from Saffa rugby fans

Understand he started this week at BlackBerry, patrolling the break downs.

 

[PaarlBok]

Here is SA Ref panel:

The South African Referees' Association has made known its panels for 2011.

National Panel (In alphabetical order)

Stuart Berry (SARRA), Jason Jaftha (SARRA), Marius Jonker (SARRA), Craig Joubert (SARRA), Jonathan Kaplan (SARRA), Mark Lawrence (SARRA), Pro Legoete (SARRA), Sindile Mayende (SARRA), Jaco Peyper (SARRA), Joey Salmans (SARRA), Lourens van der Merwe (SARRA)

Provincial Panel (In alphabetical order)

Luke Burger (Blue Bulls), Ben Crouse (Blue Bulls), Gerrie de Bruin (Blue Bulls), François Groenewald (Western Province), Quinton Immelman (Western Province), Lusanda Jam (Border), Tiaan Jonker (Golden Lions), Matt Kemp (Western Province), Mlungiseli Mdashe (Valke), November Dilbert (South Western Districts), Rasta Rashivenga (Golden Lions), Archie Sehlako (KwaZulu Natal), Marius van der Westhuizen (Western Province)

Contenders Squad for 2011: Blake Beattie (KwaZulu Natal), Rodney Bonaparte (Eastern Province), Petri Bosch (Western Province), André Botha (Blue Bulls), Tony Correia (KwaZulu Natal), François de Bruin (Griquas), Pieter de Villiers (Golden Lions), Stephan Geldenhuys (Blue Bulls), Hein Gericke (Western Province), C Jadezweni (Western Province), Pieter Janse van Vuuren (Free State), Martin Lekhanye (Free State), Sinethemba Mrulwa (Western Province), Eduan Nel (Golden Lions), François Pretorius (Western Province), Oregopotse Rametsi (Leopards), Andrew Slater (Western Province), Ricus van der Hoven (Pumas), Jaco van Heerden (Blue Bulls), Jan Venter (Blue Bulls)

Of these Stephan Geldenhuys, Jaco van Heerden and Andrew Slater are reserves for the Provincial Panel.

Reserve Contenders : L Bosman (Border), Eugene de Wet (Valke), I Dippenaar (Golden Lions), S du Toit (Leopards), W Esterhuizen (Griffons), D Fortuin (Western Province), Jaco Kotze (Cheetahs), M Mpiti (Western Province)

Women’s Panel (In alphabetical order)

Eska Claasen (South Western Districts), Madel de Villiers (Golden Lions), Eugenia Daniels-Africa (Western Province), Roslyn Fortuin (Boland), Marlize Jordaan (Free State), Sanet Ludick (Leopards), Sipokazi Njani (Border), Ilana Scholtz (Golden Lions), Magda van der Heever (Pumas)

Contenders’/Academy Squad – Women (In alphabetical order)

Renee Daniell (Blue Bulls), Melany Duthie (Boland), Henchalla Oerson (South Western Districts)

Specialised National Assistant Referees Panel (In alphabeticsl order)

Phillip Bosch (Eastern Province), Stefan Breytenbach (Pumas), Christie du Preez (Eastern Province) (IRB Panel ), Johan Greeff (Blue Bulls), Linston Manuels (Boland), Reuben Rossouw (Sharks), Marc van Zyl (Western Province), Cobus Wessels (South Western Districts) (IRB Panel), Fumanekile Yamile (Eastern Province)

Regional Assistant Referees Squad (In alphabetical order)

Attie Buitendach (Blue Bulls), De Goede Haasbroek (Griquas), Sieg van Staden (Valke)

National TMO panel (In alphabetical order)

Gerrie Coetzee (Free State), JC Fortuin (Western Province), Johann Meuwesen (Eastern Province), Shaun Veldsman (Boland)

National Selectors (In alphabeticsl order)

Eugene Daniels (SARRA), Dennis Immelman (Western Province), Willie Roos (Golden Lions), Arrie Schoonwinkel (Free State) (Convener), Banks Yantolo (Border), Balie Swart (SARU)

Balie Swart is the coaches' representative on the referees' selection panel.

National Women’s Match Reviewers & Coaches (In alphabeticsl order)

Eugene Daniels (SARRA), Eugene de Villiers (Golden Lions) (Convener), Dana Eitzen (SARRA), Janse van Vuuren Theuns (Golden Lions)

National Coaches (In alphabeticsl order)

Phillip du Toit (Leopards), JC Fortuin (Western Province), Marius Franken (Western Province), Neville Heilbron (SARRA), Tappe Henning (SARU), Johann Meuwesen (Eastern Province), Theuns Naudé (SARU), Balie Swart (SARRA), Shaun Veldsman (Boland)

National Match Reviewers (In alphabeticsl order)

Gerrit Coetzer (Free State), Keith Hendricks (Boland), Jacques Hugo (Eastern Province), Lusanda Menze (Free State), Thuso Mngqibisa (Western Province), Richard Nash (Border), Allan O’Connell (KwaZulu Natal), Pierre Oelofse (Golden Lions) (Convener)

Comparing this to the Aus panels
Australian HPU Referee Structure:
National Programs Manager - Anthony Eddy
HPU National Referee Coach - Andrew Cole
Referee Administrator - Kelly Swan
National Referee Selectors - Wayne Erickson, Andrew Cole, Scott Young
National Referee Coaches - Andrew Cole, Mick Tanzer, John McCarthy
National A Panel - Stuart Dickinson, Nathan Pearce, Steve Walsh, Ian Smith
National B Panel - Angus Gardner, Steve Hardy, Stephen Hill, James Leckie, Andrew lees, Damien Mitchelmore, Simon Moore, Julian Pritchard
Television Match Official - George Ayoub, Matt Goddard, Steve Leszczynski

and you get the differense and the reason why Australia struggling with refs and SA leading the world stage.