South African referees want to take action against Bryce Lawrence

[Inside Shoulder]

Its vokken interesting to see the same old double standards when the subject ref arise in this forum. The same old same that jump up and down week after week about refs now all of sudden jump up and down when people who actually know something about reffing wants to do something.

Thats the reason why I stay clear when its about critizing refs special this lot doing it before matches. Get a vokken life. SA produce the best refs in rugby by quite a big margin and if they want to down Bryce after the same above lot complain like hell week after week , so let it be.

Watson for one do this week after week in SA rugby no shying away from kak reffing on weekends probably the reason why our standards is as high as it is.

This would be a good point except that we have not signed on to the rugby payroll and nor do we hold positions of responsibility with respect to the health of the game.


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[Blue]

This is a disgrace: it's akin to the crap P de V went on with over the Botha citing and the armbands: the IRB should impose a sanction on Watson who, presumably, is some chance of having input into neutral refs appointed to ref in SA.
How could he as a former ref, guilty of many a dogy call, crucify one of his own?
As for the suggestion it's a beat up: Watson is quoted as saying he will be punished.
Are they all mad in south Africa?

Well, sort of yes. But mostly in a good way.

I reckon Australians are just as mad, but a different kind of mad.

I guess there is also a cultural difference here. Saffers like to speak their minds and generally don't tend to take what is said all too seriously. You know, pinch of salt, take it on face value, not too sensitive and all that.

If the ref blows like shit he is well, shit.

PS I think Watson is pissed that Bruce made it ahead of Mark and I think this is also a dig at Paddy.

So was Watson out of line? Yes
Should he be taken to task on it? Yes
Is it about time a ref gets taken to task? Yes, you damn bet you. There has been complaining and bitching about refs all over the world for years. What gets really done about it? Nothing. Will this shake things up a little? About time if it does.

 

[Set piece magic]

Watson had a 'courier mail' done to him by the saffa papers from what i can see, the quote has been taken out of context and used to make him seem like an aggressive opposition.

Bryce the poor sod got picked for a job he isn't quite fit to do. He would be better if he could improve his positioning and keeping up with play, plus controvertial ruck interpretations. I feel sorry for the saffers and sorry for Bryce.

 

[DPK]

This would be a good point except that we have not signed on to the rugby payroll and nor do we hold positions of responsibility with respect to the health of the game.


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Do you really believe that statement?

 

[PaarlBok]

Watson had a 'courier mail' done to him by the saffa papers from what i can see, the quote has been taken out of context and used to make him seem like an aggressive opposition.

Bryce the poor sod got picked for a job he isn't quite fit to do. He would be better if he could improve his positioning and keeping up with play, plus controvertial ruck interpretations. I feel sorry for the saffers and sorry for Bryce.

OK I'll take you to Saru refs official site, no newspaper talking, straight out of the mouth.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2807244.htm

What Lawrence did not do
Tue, 11 Oct 2011 22:20

South Africa lost their quarterfinal with Australia 11-9 on Sunday despite dominating almost all of the match. This has led to loud condemnation of the performance of New Zealand referee Bryce Lawrence. There are some things he did not do.

We could make a list of things he did not do.

Bryce Lawrence did not

* miss a kick at goal;
* knock on close to the Wallaby line;
* pass forward;
* pull a line-out jumper's leg while he was airborne
* try to run the ball up from his own line and lose it
* tackle a Springbok, as the Wallabies did 147 times.

Bryce Lawrence did none of those telling things that had a serious effect on the game. Other people did those things for better or worse. Some of them had a winning or losing effect on the game. If the referee erred, he was not alone in doing so.

Let's look at some other things that Bryce Lawrence did not do.

He did not

* penalise much - just 10 times in the match. That was the second lowest number of penalties of any match in the 2011 Rugby World Cup. South Africa were penalised six times, Australia four times. The lowest was nine when New Zealand played Canada.

It is fewer penalties than in other World Cup matches Lawrence refereed.

England vs Argentina: 27
Australia vs Ireland: 20
Fiji vs Samoa: 14
Australia vs Russia: 13

There is not necessarily a virtue in fewer penalties unless the low number of penalties is thanks to player compliance and/or referee management.

* penalise much at the tackle - each side just three times.

In this match this was certainly not a virtue as in many cases the tackle area became a free for all, to the detriment of the game. This was probably the weakest part of Lawrence's performance and the one that caused most anger.

* penalise a high tackle which was obvious to the spectator, not necessarily to the referee.

* allow Australia a rekick after they missed a conversion which South Africa had charged early.

In South Africa the criticism of Lawrence's refereeing has made headline news, much as the unpunished forward pass cause anger and made headline news in New Zealand in 2007.

South Africa had its own commentators at the World Cup and much of the criticism echoed the commentator's criticism of Lawrence's refereeing. That may mean the criticism was fuelled by the commentators but unfair or that the criticism was justified and that the criticisms were formed from observation.

On Facebook a petition to have Lawrence removed from refereeing had will over 40 000 signatories.

Conspiracy theories against surfaced, going back to the e-mails between Lawrence's father Keith and his Australian counterpart a few years ago in which they proposed collaboration to get the 'japies'. There was a suggestion that Lawrence was protecting New Zealand from a clash with South Africa. That sort of thing.

The anger and criticism at the refereeing will not change the result and is not the first outburst of South African anger at what a referee has done or not done. It is not healthy and not good for refereeing. It is the first real refereeing controversy of the World Cup, coming just after the manager of the International Rugby Board's referees, Paddy O'Brien, had praised the performances of his referees in 40 pool matches. That there was so little controversy is not surprising as the 10 referees had been chosen after careful scrutiny over four years or more. They were experts at their job. Then the matches, bar two, were played in a fine spirit with acceptance of refereeing decisions.

All of this applied to Lawrence as well - one of the chosen 10 with four praiseworthy performances in the World Cup before this one.

Just one little cautionary thought: did the referee go into the match with a preconceived plan to have few penalties and create a spectacle of free-flowing rugby? If that were the case then it would be folly surely not a part of a top referee's make-up and planning. It is not an honest way to approach a game.

However we look at it, the rights and wrongs of the criticism it is not a good day for the rugby, for refereeing, for the World Cup and for South African attitudes - sportsmanship and that sort of good manners.

Paul Dobson

.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2807144.htm

Lawrence baffles Watson
Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:28

In the wake of South Africa's early exit from the 2011 Rugby World Cup following their 11-9 defeat at the hands of Australia's Wallabies, there has been an eruption of anger directed at the referee of the match, Bryce Lawrence of New Zealand and even André Watson, a SARU general manager and in charge of South African referees, admitted to being surprised by referee Lawrence's performance.

Speaking on 567 Cape Talk Radio on Tuesday. Watson said that Lawrence's handling of the breakdown area in the clash between the Springboks and the Wallabies. had baffled him.

Watson said: "His opening game (at the World Cup, a match between England and Argentina) was outstanding. I had no problem with his appointment. But he allowed a free-for-all."

As a result the Wallaby flank David Pocock, was able to have a field day, winning turnovers and slowing down Springboks' ball virtually at wioll.

Watson added: "It's not what you would expect from a referee of his calibre - he didn't referee the breakdown the way he was supposed to. He just didn't step in.

"He will be punished, but that's up to the IRB. I do not believe we will see him in any Rugby World Cup again," said Watson.

Watson also said that the SA Referees' Association would voice its disapproval, saying: "It's done and dusted now, but we will be taking action. We want to make sure it doesn't happen again."

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Well, sort of yes. But mostly in a good way.

I reckon Australians are just as mad, but a different kind of mad.

I guess there is also a cultural difference here. Saffers like to speak their minds and generally don't tend to take what is said all too seriously. You know, pinch of salt, take it on face value, not too sensitive and all that.

If the ref blows like shit he is well, shit.

PS I think Watson is pissed that Bruce made it ahead of Mark and I think this is also a dig at Paddy.

So was Watson out of line? Yes
Should he be taken to task on it? Yes
Is it about time a ref gets taken to task? Yes, you damn bet you. There has been complaining and bitching about refs all over the world for years. What gets really done about it? Nothing. Will this shake things up a little? About time if it does.

Bryce?
But mark "blonde highlights" Lawrence could never have reffed this game and SA have more refs than anyone at the RWC


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[Brisbok]

Bryce?
But mark "blonde highlights" Lawrence could never have reffed this game and SA have more refs than anyone at the RWC
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That's half the point mate. Do you want the best referee's reffing at the world cup? Or is it more important that no country has more than two ref's there and as result, diminish the over quality of refereeing?

 

[PaarlBok]

Aussies to critise Graig Joubert after the semi if they lose. Watch this space. There are a lot of posts to bring back to life.

 

[Scarfman]

As I said in the other thread, Watson seems way out of line here. It's not his jurisdiction, yet.

Paarl is completely right, though, that RSA refs are the best in the world, and if plain speaking is part of that, then good.

 

[brokendown]

Are the southafricans also calling for Nigel Owens to be outed? Or did his fuck ups benefit them?

I think Nigel outed himself,a couple of years ago

 

[light]

Aussies to critise Graig Joubert after the semi if they lose. Watch this space. There are a lot of posts to bring back to life.

No matter who wins Joubert will be criticised. It's the nature of the game now that teams can't lose without blaming others for the result. I thought the Springboks were pretty gracious in defeat, with the exception of a few. I'd hope that Australia is much the same in defeat but something tells me I am about to get proven very wrong.

I've always rated Joubert, I can't see one game changing that view.

 

[Sandpit Fan]

OK I'll take you to Saru refs official site, no newspaper talking, straight out of the mouth.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2807244.htm

.

http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2807144.htm

Both of those articles seem like a measured look at what Bryce did & didn't do - nothing more sensational than that. It's a bloody good look at what happened actually, and good on the SA Refs association for having the balls to do it and put it out there. Put me in the column of favouring SA refs, the trade needs more of this straight talk instead of tip toeing around insinuating things or just saying no comment..

For someone to beat up Andre Watson's comment about punishment is just over the top. Of course he will be "punished", and it will be in much the same way that Stu Dickenson was, i.e. by being assigned to lower profile games. I would agree 100% that we won't see him at any RWC in the future, just as Stu wasn't there this year. WTF is so controversial (or wrong) about that?

Interesting comment from Watson that BL's first game (England-Argenina) was fine. Both teams are not noted for having fetchers and the rucks were very sedate affairs, which Bryce can handle alright. Different story when you have Pocock/Brussow/McCaw all pushing their luck at the breakdown.

And for the record, I'm confident Craig Joubert will do his usual high quality job on the weekend. Problem now is every decision is going to be under the microscope, and judged by armchair critics with access to 30 seconds of slow-mo replays to make the decision Joubert has to make in 1 second. Refs will always miss stuff, it's the nature of our game. You want a game where the ref has negligible impact - go watch league.

 

[Bullrush]

Remember this:

Umaga blasts refs before signing off
By Gregor Paul
5:00 AM Sunday May 6, 2007

Tana Umaga says the standard of refereeing in New Zealand at the top level is poor.

Tana Umaga used his farewell speech to blast the dire state of refereeing in the Southern Hemisphere and said he's happy to cop a big fine as long as it leads to the problem being fixed.

Having played 14 seasons of first grade football, Umaga reckons officialdom in this country has never been such a bad way and the former All Black skipper is worried that the game will suffer badly unless something is done.

"I have talked to Colin [Hurricanes coach Cooper] and told him he has to be harder on refs and not to butter them up," said Umaga. "They get paid just like us but the problem is they don't get dropped and they suffer no accountability for bad games.

"I tell my son to become a ref because it is the safest job in the world at the moment.

"That's the frustration I have had for a long time. If they become accountable, and from what I hear they want to be, get them out here talking to you guys [media].


"We show them clips and they say yeah, yeah but yeah-yeah doesn't mean much when you are out there. I think referees in this part of the world are lacking. The northern hemisphere in my experience have always been better refs. It's sad to see. It is an empathy with the game, the flow, apart from Jonathan Kaplan, New Zealand and Australian refs are right at the bottom."

Umaga accepts that such outbursts can't go unsanctioned, that there will be repercussions. But he'll take what they throw at him.

"Hopefully they take Master Card and Visa because I have got both. I am at the stage where I can say that and I will take the hit when it comes. But something needs to be done.

"Until they become accountable then we are just going to have the same old, same old, and the standard of refereeing is poor here.

"The consistency of what they rule has been a problem and it has come to a stage where we have to watch because referees are refereeing more on reputation rather than what they are seeing."

And he'll take it because deep down he knows that a player with his standing in the game can't be ignored.

Hitting him with a fine will not make the issue go away. Given his reputation and his never before desire to get verbally stuck in to officials, his words will surely resonate with officials in high places.

He didn't lash out to take a needless parting shot. He lashed out because he cares about the game and he desperately wants to see it improved.

Hopefully the men charged with running the sport feel the same way.

 

[PaarlBok]

Thanks for that BR. Good to get perspective. Andre Watson will never shy away from the truth and call it as he see's things. Thats good for our lot. Qoute it many a time on this forum , SA have the right structures and the competitions to back them to be good refs at top level. From Craven Week, Varsity Cup, CCU19, CCU21, CC 1st Div, Vodacom Cup, CC Premier to bring them to internatonal level. We have our passionate supporters and TV live channels giving the heat on players and refs.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That's half the point mate. Do you want the best referee's reffing at the world cup? Or is it more important that no country has more than two ref's there and as result, diminish the over quality of refereeing?

I dont have a view - you have to balance the numbers to some extent otherwise you will finish up with a game that can't be reffed. Is Mark L rated that highly - I like him but I've never thought about where I rate him in the overall scheme of refs.
I do know that there's no way any of the major unions would fail to get an appointment: even if ours had to be an ex kiwi sent here to dry out.
As for taking what Watson wrote as opposed to what he is quoted as saying - given that the comments appear within quotations and it would be an easy matter to disprove it seems highly unlikely that he has been misquoted: doesn't it?

 

[Blue]

Bryce?
But mark "blonde highlights" Lawrence could never have reffed this game and SA have more refs than anyone at the RWC


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Did I say Mark Lawrence should have reffed this game?

No.

Did you mean he should have been at the World cup and Bryce not.

Yes.

 

[Blue]

Remember this:

Hiss! Boo! Spit!

 

[Eyes and Ears]

and probably the reason why Aus struggle to get top refs and have to import.

Refereeing stocks like teams goes in cycles. Australia had 5 highly rated referees (Erickson, Marhsall, Young, Cole, Dickinson) at one stage. NZ had a strong era with O'Brien, Hawke, Walsh & Bray. SA have had a good run with JK, Lawrence and Joubert. However once JK and Mark retire next year, refereeing might not be so flash in SA (with the exception of Joubert).

IMO, By 2013, NZ will have the most representatitves at SANZAR level. The only question is will it be because they perform the best or because they have both the IRB and SANZAR referee manager. IMO, it's no coincidence that 7 of the 10 RWC referees come from the 4 countries that the selectors are from.

The top three refs , M Lawrense, Berry and Peypler is doing CC rugby at this moment. You have no idea how frustrating it is to watch them do CC just after the WC lot fuck around. No idea.

While I don't mind Lawrence's refereeing - he had the poorest game of the 6 Test referees in the 2010 Tri-Nations when he had a bad day at the breakdown and I suspect that this, his age and his inability to toe the line cost him his spot. Berry has not referee-ed Super Rugby yet and Peyper who has had some good games in Super rugby, has also had many poor ones - he is still a young referee with potential who is learning his trade. To suggest that these 2 referees should be at the RWC is just ludicrous.

 

[pete88]

The RSA press release looks really solid actually, shame Andre Watson had to make those almost mafia hitman-like comments, really. Interestingly, English fans think he is a total joke for his officiating in the 2003 RWC final and if we'd won it I reckon he would not be in the position he is in now, the backlash would have been massive up north.

I have to also agree it's likely there will be some serious bitching if we lose the Semi or the Final. It's something I will enjoy reading slightly more than watching the match that sparks it.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The poms are right about 2003. In my view the game went into ot because Watson decided to give us a scrum penalty which he thought would just be a get square with no consequences........flatley bloody well kicked the goal and we're into ot.


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