South Africa tour (and squad)

[Ruggo]

Im a big A.Fainga fan but i have to agree that he has NOT earned his starting spot. I recon Barnes was better at shutting down nonu, he only "just" slipped off a few tackles but was quick to get up into nonu's face, and got a good hit early on. I guess his mindset at shutting down nonu was much better then A.Fainga's but his execution probably wasnt there tho cos he did miss a few. A.Fainga known as a good defensive option but after that performance im questioning his defensive ability. Maybe his combination with gits n AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is poor. He's gotta step up!

It was his debut don't forget. A couple of nervous mistakes would sum his errors up. Run him again and I bet he will be better for it and his combination with Cooper may just provide the composure we lack in our backline.

He certainly has not cemented his spot but on the other hand he as shown enough to be run at 12 again.

 

[Gagger]

Exactly, there's a big difference between being last man standing and having cemented the position. On top of this he got a start and hardly set the world alight so position far from cemented (although that's not a reason to bin him from the squad / future selection)

JO'C on the other hand now has 20 caps, albeit out of position, which to date has been to accommodate gits & barnes

I think both AF and JOC (James O'Connor) currently look the future of the 12 role for the Wallabies. They do it different ways, but both bend the line, rather than hoof downfield. Out of the two though, it's clear who currently has more international pedigree at this time.

 

[H...]

Bit rough on Faiinga for anyone to suggest that he shouldn't get another start. If you think Giteau is the last word in inside-centre supremacy then what's wrong with giving Faiinga a couple more starts (preferably not all at altitude, since theyre all going to look shit at altitude), given that we can just stick Giteau back in if the kid is no good? Or for that matter, O'Connor?

I get the feeling (though not on G&GR) that real Giteau fans are so vocal about him needing to be picked at 12 again because they worry that someone might come aboard and start doing it properly, leaving Giteau out in the cold.

 

[Hawko]

I get the feeling (though not on G&GR) that real Giteau fans are so vocal about him needing to be picked at 12 again because they worry that someone might come aboard and start doing it properly, leaving Giteau out in the cold.

That's getting awfully close to the truth.

 

[Lee Grant]

Just picking through some comments on the thread:

Mandela Plate
Agree that we have a lot to play for and the fact that both games are on the veldt and not Durban and Cape Town should not signify. We have to run these blokes around like blue heelers yet make sure we are prepared to last 80 minutes at altitude. To do this we have to embrace our bench more as Ruggo said.

Hodgson
I'm not sure how much rugby this fellow has played lately but if he is match fit I'd start him because he will play until he drops. I'd play him at 8 and bench Brown. I'm not particularly fussed if Hodgson hasn't played 8 for a while. Give him a crash course of picking up the ball from the back of a scrum.

Beale
He stuffed up when Mils scored? As John Wayne said in Big Jake: Not hardly. Mealamu had the ball but was covered by S.Finger coming across and A.Finger should have committed to Joe Rock - but was caught in no-mans land between the two Kiwis instead.

Joe Rock breezed past outside him; so Beale had Joe and Mils coming at him. He was between a Rock and a hard place but had to commit to the ball runner. When it was obvious that Joe was going to pass he tried to switch to Mils but it was too late. Had he stood closer to Mils before the pass Joe would have ran straight by him, and not slowed down and drawn Beale; S.Finger then wouldn't have got close to Joe.

He stuffed up when Smith scored? The Kiwi commentators mentioned that A.Finger “left them stranded” coming out of the line, but it was more that he loitered too far forward and didn't retreat when he had a chance to align with his mates. He was caught in no-mans land again. This time it was Nonu that he did not line up against, and he was defeated by Weepu's pass. Because A.F. went walkabout, literally, JOC (James O'Connor) could no longer stay wide to commit to Smith and get a shoulder on him; so the try was scored.

A. Fainga'a
He should get another run? Not on your Nelly; not with Cooper back and Giteau going to 12. Not only was he suspect no.1 for the two Kiwi tries but also he tried to take Nonu too high in the 2nd half and got fended off with ease. He can tackle as hard as any midfielder when he has a target but his positional vagueness and lack of care when it mattered meant that no tackle could be attempted.

I am sorry to criticise the young man so harshly in his first test because I want him to succeed. For those who want to see him get another chance: he will get it, but hopefully not on the veldt.

.

 

[Joe Blow]

We need to get back to what we were doing before the Melbourne test against the ABS which was run the Boks off their feet.
Giteau has a big part to play in this and agree Hodson must also play the majority of the first test in SA.
Also hope Deans starts Moore and gives Fainga'a 30 odd minutes in the second half remembering they are interchangeable in case of injury.
Was Moore injured for the ChCh match?
Whoever else is on the bench must also be used earlier rather than later.
We need to win the first one and really put it to the Boks after the ABs have hopefully done the same.

 

[Richo]

We need to get back to what we were doing before the Melbourne test against the ABS which was run the Boks off their feet.
Giteau has a big part to play in this...

By running sideways, kicking the ball away, and not linking to men outside or inside?

 

[Aussie D]

Just picking through some comments on the thread:
A. Fainga'a
He should get another run? Not on your Nelly; not with Cooper back and Giteau going to 12. Not only was he suspect no.1 for the two Kiwi tries but also he tried to take Nonu too high in the 2nd half and got fended off with ease. He can tackle as hard as any midfielder when he has a target but his positional vagueness and lack of care when it mattered meant that no tackle could be attempted.

I am sorry to criticise the young man so harshly in his first test because I want him to succeed. For those who want to see him get another chance: he will get it, but hopefully not on the veldt.

1. It was his first test and from looking at it he was a little too eager to make his presence known early but once he settled down was good.
2. He missed most of his tackles in the second half from memory where he was noticedly tiring. I said to my mate who I was watching the game with he should be replaced but Deans didn't do it.

 

[Sully]

I think Moore was probably left on the bench because Pocock had possibly stuffed his shoulder and someone may had to come on as a backrow replacement. It was either one of the Hookers or a back.

 

[Sully]

The Question you must ask about A. Finger is did we lose anything by his presence. I think he did alright and was no worse than the bloke there the week before. Different but not worse. So not better so Gits gets his spot back. For now. And Anthony sits on the bench instead of Barnes.

 

[RedsHappy]

Parhaps the two are linked, barbarian. Physical deficiencies constrain a team's tactical options. Do you really think that the Wallabies presently could play with the same level of intensity as the All Blacks?

Bruce, I'm not qualified in your (important) area, and I certainly learnt a lot from your posts and others' counter-posts in that debate. Thanks for contributing.

However, one thing can I think be said with certainty: these 2010 Wallabies and their coaching infrastructure are not obsessed with attention to every critical detail of performance as is equally obvious that the ABs are. If they were so obsessed, we may not see win after win, but we'd see some sustained improvements from Test 1 or 2 to Test 7 in, for example, defence KPIs, and elements of back line play. We all know that instead of that progressive line upwards, we have a roller coaster without a stop button and no one knows quite what will improve or decay next.

As a corollary, with the team struggling to get to a, say, 70% acceptable standard of performance, it's likely that the anxieties are now high in the coaching group just to move up another 5% or so, so refinements in physical conditioning along the lines you advocate are most likely low priority, rightly or wrongly.

(Btw, I remain hugely amused at the publicity the ARU extracts from all that 'GPS devices on players' backs' stuff. I would like Williams and Graham to have these installed with SMS receipt capability so we could send them advisory messages during each game ;-) ).

 

[RedsHappy]

It was his debut don't forget. A couple of nervous mistakes would sum his errors up....He certainly has not cemented his spot but on the other hand he as shown enough to be run at 12 again.

I guess Ruggo the problem with those 'nervous mistakes' is that they likely directly or indirectly leaked at least one AB try (see LG's posts on this). OK, that's history now, but these are errors that, playing the ABs, you simply cannot afford to make, or your likelihood of loss goes up massively. That last game was critical to Oz, the BC was literally on the line. And the pressure on _any_ debutant was huge in this particular away game. There were alternatives. IMO, Barnes 10 Giteau 12 would have been a superior risk-reward option for this game, with AF coming off the bench as prudent. I've been a declared AF fan all year, I just don't think this was the smart way to blood him, it entailed significant risk in the game's context, and that was realised.

 

[Lee Grant]

The Question you must ask about A. Finger is did we lose anything by his presence.

Yes: the game. More exactly, two tries - by not committing to Joe Rock in the first, nor to Nonu in the 2nd - and we lost by 10. Sure, I know that's simplistic and maybe another player would have the same errors and yarda, yarda. Who knows; so take those comments with a grain of salt.

More to the point: with Cooper suspended and Giteau going to 10, should Barnes have started instead of Anthony? No; Barnes had to be dropped and the young bloke had to get his chance. He will get another chance and whenever that his he should be aware by then of the dangers of being caught in no-mans land against implacable, elite players like the All Blacks.

 

[Joe Blow]

By running sideways, kicking the ball away, and not linking to men outside or inside?

No, not necessarily like that.
More by taking the pressure of Cooper by giving Genia another genuine first receiver option and by ripping the Boks up when put through a gap by Cooper or Genia.

A. Fainga'a is a good player but he does not have the game of Giteau just yet. In contrast Giteau could mimic AF pretty closely if that's what he was asked to do.
Giteau has played very well against the Boks in the past and will hopefully do likewise in SA now.

 

[Scotty]

Exactly, there's a big difference between being last man standing and having cemented the position. On top of this he got a start and hardly set the world alight so position far from cemented (although that's not a reason to bin him from the squad / future selection)

JO'C on the other hand now has 20 caps, albeit out of position, which to date has been to accommodate gits & barnes

I think both AF and JOC (James O'Connor) currently look the future of the 12 role for the Wallabies. They do it different ways, but both bend the line, rather than hoof downfield. Out of the two though, it's clear who currently has more international pedigree at this time.

I'm still throwing up Horne in the 12 mix for the wallabies, and lets not forget Lealiifano (can we please agree on an easier way to write his name - I never know if I get the spelling right), who may well have been 12 ahead of Fa'ainga if he hadn't been injured early in the season for the Brumbies. I thought he was their best in the games he played.

 

[Scotty]

Yes: the game. More exactly, two tries - by not committing to Joe Rock in the first, nor to Nonu in the 2nd - and we lost by 10. Sure, I know that's simplistic and maybe another player would have the same errors and yarda, yarda. Who knows; so take those comments with a grain of salt.

More to the point: with Cooper suspended and Giteau going to 10, should Barnes have started instead of Anthony? No; Barnes had to be dropped and the young bloke had to get his chance. He will get another chance and whenever that his he should be aware by then of the dangers of being caught in no-mans land against implacable, elite players like the All Blacks.

One of the big issues (which I mentioned prior to the game) has been RD's handling of AF. Why on earth wasn't he given more time off the bench in Melbourne, in a game we lost in the first half. Even 20-25 minutes may have made all the difference in settling him down and getting him right for starting then next game in Chch. It is too much to ask players with about 5 minutes test experience to expect to play well against the worlds best and most intimidating team in their own back yards.

Robbie's player management in this case has been very poor IMO.

 

[Ruggo]

I guess Ruggo the problem with those 'nervous mistakes' is that they likely directly or indirectly leaked at least one AB try (see LG's posts on this). OK, that's history now, but these are errors that, playing the ABs, you simply cannot afford to make, or your likelihood of loss goes up massively. That last game was critical to Oz, the BC was literally on the line. And the pressure on _any_ debutant was huge in this particular away game. There were alternatives. IMO, Barnes 10 Giteau 12 would have been a superior risk-reward option for this game, with AF coming off the bench as prudent. I've been a declared AF fan all year, I just don't think this was the smart way to blood him, it entailed significant risk in the game's context, and that was realised.

In all due respect, I think you are not seing the big picture. Move Giteau back to 12 and all you have is the continuance of a 10/12 pairing that has not worked. As I have previously said, Fainga'a will be better for last week. Some of his mistakes were costly but he was not a major aspect of the loss. How we played the game was. If our backline was more direct and less lateral, we would of been in a position to threaten and regain points conceeded. A Cooper/Fainga'a has proven that they provide this.

We have to run SA around heavily for the full 80 at altitude, therefore a 5:2 split on the bench would be the better option to maintain this up tempo style. Giteau on the bench facilitates this well as with only two backs, he offers great diversity. He will be a far better resource at our disposal, coming on later in the game as fresh legs against tired opposition. Unless injury to the halfback, Anthony Fainga'a should be the man he replaces.

Anthony should of debuted long before last week against Fiji or England when we were told by Robbie deans that the sides were picked on form.

 

[DPK]

I'm still throwing up Horne in the 12 mix for the wallabies, and lets not forget Lealiifano (can we please agree on an easier way to write his name - I never know if I get the spelling right), who may well have been 12 ahead of Fa'ainga if he hadn't been injured early in the season for the Brumbies. I thought he was their best in the games he played.

Lilly? Lolly? The Fan?

 

[Scotty]

Lilly Fanny?

I don't think he would like that one much though.

 

[Gnostic]

What has Giteau done in the test arena against top opposition to deserve continued selection? At 10 he is a liability. He provides no options and he limits the options of people outside him. He was always a 12 and at one stage IMO the best in the world. However in the last 2 years we have seen him play one good game and that was OK, a pass mark. Its time to move on and either A. Fainga'a or JOC (James O'Connor) is the option. Fainga'a has a tendency to rush up and go for the big hit and either misses the mark or is ineffectual. On occasion he knocks himself senseless as well. I said this during the S14 and got howled done by the Finger Fan club. Decent coaching could fix this but as all here know I question if he will be receiving that in Camp Wallaby.

JOC (James O'Connor) also has issues of a different kind in that he does not pass the ball. Somebody get the rocks out of the Sauna and start passing them to JOC (James O'Connor) and see if he will hold on then.

The option now could be IMO Barnes. Barnes is a reliable goal kicker, can pass, is a better defender than Giteau and is a great foil for the flair of Cooper.