• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

South Africa tour (and squad)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Richo

John Thornett (49)
Why are we that worried about JOC (James O'Connor)'s defense at 12? We just watched Barnes and A. Finger drop off tackles like flies, including the latter having a pivotal role in letting in two early tries thanks to foolish rushing into the line. JOC (James O'Connor) couldn't do much worse.

I'm happy for A. Finger to start, but would love to see Deans USE HIS BENCH and bring JOC (James O'Connor) on at 12 with 20-30 minutes to go.
 

dobduff11

Trevor Allan (34)
JOC (James O'Connor)'s defence isn't as good as Fainga'a's but it isn't as bad as people make out. He rarely missed vital tackles in the super 14 when defending from 12 apart from the reds try by a.finger.

Giteau needs to be played at 12 outside of quade and let them get some continuity together which they started to show against RSA.

JOC (James O'Connor) can come off the bench with hynes starting on the right wing.
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
Giteau needs to be played at 12 outside of quade and let them get some continuity together which they started to show against RSA.

JOC (James O'Connor) can come off the bench with hynes starting on the right wing.

This. Giteau will be right back at 12 and Deans can carry on where he left off before QC (Quade Cooper) was suspended.

Giteau will take off after the RWC next year and then JOC (James O'Connor) will be given the opportunity to settle in to a starting role in the midfield.
He is a very good bench option because he can basically play anywhere except HB.
12 is definitely his best possie.

Hynes and Mitchell to start on the wings.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
I'm sorry, why has A. Fainga'a earned a starting spot?

Based on last week, looks to me like he needs a few more caps in defence at least, which JO'C already has.
 
C

chief

Guest
I'm sorry, why has A. Fainga'a earned a starting spot?

Based on last week, looks to me like he needs a few more caps in defence at least, which JO'C already has.

He earnt his starting spot. Without question.

JOC (James O'Connor) has a lot of defensive errors too, which can be argued whether he earnt his spot in the side. Deans is obviously reluctant to play JOC (James O'Connor) at 12 with Giteau as Flyhalf, maybe he'll give it a crack when Cooper is back on the Euro tour or bring JOC (James O'Connor) of the bench in South Africa. Don't get me wrong it's worth a crack.

But you can't trial a player who hasn't played that much at Inside Centre, with another player (Giteau) who is an inside centre but is playing Flyhalf.
 

dobduff11

Trevor Allan (34)
Deans needs to stick with Cooper at 10 and gits at 12 throughout the tri nations if it is succesful then that can be the starting midfield for next year aswell.

However on the EOYT he should blood JOC (James O'Connor) and Fainga'a at 12 in the warmup games and give either one or both of them a test against a weaker nation, Scotland, Italy and maybe Wales ( i don't know which of these teams they are playing). Keep the gits cooper combo for the big tests against England/Ireland/France.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Looking at some of the posts in this thread I fear that we are falling into the trap again of nitpicking about this player and that one, and worse: about this back or that, when it's not the main point.


The main point is that the backs aren't getting a good platform of quick clean ball. They are getting enough possession but the forwards are stopping at the ball instead of driving past it with the next guy stabilising briefly so the ball doesn't pop out before the scrummie arrives.


Stopping at the ball in Christchurch meant that the Blacks could counter ruck against virtual statues, at times when they chose to do so. By contrast the Wallabies counter rucking was practically absent.


The forwards look poorly coached. They are going from game to game, and squad to squad, and year to year with a revolving catalogue of problems. They fix some of them but a different element usually fails when they do. The excellent physical work against the Boks on attack in Brisbane depreciated in Christchurch. On the other hand the Melbourne restart problem was resolved- but nobody will be surprised when there is another kick-off fiasco. And so on.


Some of us are trusting that Quade Cooper will answer a lot of our backline problems but if our pack isn't driving forward he won't be able to.


The backs look poorly coached also even taking into account the weak forward platform on Saturday night.


Sure, there is only so much one should expect when the deckchairs are switched on the Titanic but I expected the Oz backline to be more modular by now under this coaching regime. Players have different skills but we shouldn't be seeing the disruptions that occur in game after game, squad after squad etc, when one or two backs have to be replaced.


There was a lot of Brown Cowism in the backs on Saturday night. We didn't need Kafer to tell us that the backs weren't coming from deep to get the ball at pace just before the tackle line; Blind Freddy could have seen that. Nor was the censure of Kafe and Ella about basic skills, such as looping, and not trying different things, a news flash.


Few of the Wallaby backs know how to help their team mates play better in big games, or won't try to do so if they can. Cooper is good especially with his inside passes but he has been absent, and Genia is an exception, but had a bad game. Some don't know how to give golden balls as many of the elite rugby league players do, and play too much on their own account.


Part of the problem is in the mind: against lesser opponents they play with verve and even joy; yet that is just the kind of thing needed in money games when the chips are down.


What I miss about the Bledisloe matches is the disappointment of losing, if you know what I mean. I have not got to that point yet about games in the RSA, though we have lost so many there also.


The Kiwis were flat in Christchurch except on defence, and we blew our chance. Although the Boks are ever better at home than away, we have a chance against them also if we force them to play at our tempo. Let's take that chance, but to do so the Wallabies with both high and low numbers will have to improve in the areas mentioned. If they don't, their doleful record in the Republic will be extended.


If that happens I may start missing the disappointment of losing over there too.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Gagger,

He has essentially had one game for the wallabies. It was average, but lets not judge him yet.

Just as I didn't judge JOC (James O'Connor) when he had a few poor games at fullback last year.

Both players have potential, and both have weaknesses. Long term JOC (James O'Connor) is more likely to be part of the team (due to his superior skills), Fa'ainga's involvement will depend on game plan and who is playing inside him (he is basically another Nathan Grey).
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I'm sorry, why has A. Fainga'a earned a starting spot? Based on last week, looks to me like he needs a few more caps in defence at least, which JO'C already has.

Gagger, perhaps you will judge this too 'soft' an assessment, but I think A Fainga'a reacted badly/anxiously to this particular pressure cauldron on starting side debut. ABs. Bad loss in Melbourne. Huge pressure for a win. Away match. 20-25 mins off the bench for AF for a few sequential games would be way better IMO. Better still would have been to trial him at home in late June (I think he was fit by Ireland.)

Further, as you'd recognise, many debutants need to be persisted with, one game should not be the basis for a complete assessment. I looked last night at some of our scores for Pocock when he first came into the Wallabies, and by no means were they immediately and always glowing 8s.

I agree with you re trialling JO'C-Cooper. The risk-reward profile of that combo is potentially better than Cooper-Giteau. Just the courage to get the immovable icon onto the bench and break that compromising hold he has on the whole back line, could be a liberation IMO that is, again, well worth the risk. If it fails badly in one game, OK, reassess. But one of the core problems I feel we have in the current selections is many are a bad mix of 'the failing past' and 'the future promise', and we're not resolved in which we believe in most - 'development and depth' mixed up with 'caution and fear of failure'. Whatever, the once rock-hard hallmark of Australian rugby, excellence in dynamic back line play, is in sad disarray at present, and intelligent experimentation has to be some part of a solution. The deeper problem is of course the complete failure of Graham as back line and 'Skills' coach.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Looking at some of the posts in this thread I fear that we are falling into the trap again of nitpicking about this player and that one, and worse: about this back or that, when it's not the main point. The main point is that the backs aren't getting a good platform of quick clean ball.....

The forwards look poorly coached. They are going from game to game, and squad to squad, and year to year with a revolving catalogue of problems....

The backs look poorly coached also even taking into account the weak forward platform on Saturday night.....

Sure, there is only so much one should expect when the deckchairs are switched on the Titanic but I expected the Oz backline to be more modular by now under this coaching regime....

Lee, thanks again for a thoughtful post we non-rugby-experts (i.e. me), but passionate fans, learn from and enjoy!

I think you and Bob D are coalescing somewhat on an assessment of these Wallabies, yes?

As mentioned, I am not someone who can plan intricate back line moves, assess props with knowledge, advise on kicking skills, or design optimal counter rucking ploys. I am certainly a long way from picking the ideal Wallaby team!

But I work a lot with business leaders and other leaders, and I think I can make some assessments about the role of leadership in sport and the specific demonstrable (or otherwise) impact of coaching as a leadership and 'winning by design, knowledge and intelligence' function in our elite sports.

And drawing upon your analysis above, and the shocking inconsistency, poor skills, rudimentary repeated errors, 'soft mind', weak or unclear game plans, restart debacles, totally uninspiring back line play (bar Perth), unsure captaincy, etc, etc, it is for me completely obvious - after 7 2010 Tests - that Williams as forwards coach and Graham as (apparently) back line coach are, at best, woefully unable to do their jobs with these Wallabies or, at worst, simply incompetent at Test level. (And btw, I think all their coaching experience was NH based, this may well be relevant). It is almost certainly the case IMO that they require urgent replacement under RD, and that other specialist coaches are required in addition: namely, mental skills and defence, at least.

Summarily, whatever we think of RD, the whole coaching infrastructure beneath him appears badly broken, and is not delivering on the ground where it matters. The ARU and its politicised Board are often poor at facing core problems, and publicly admitting mistakes is virtually unthinkable at St Leonards. I suspect they know all too well there are real problems in the coaching mix, and that is why it has been revealed that 'extra (unnamed) coaches' will be employed for the EOYT on the spurious declared grounds that such is required for the extra 2 mid-week games. But I say, why wait that long with the RWC beckoning?
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
Great thoughts, Lee. Thanks. I reckon you're spot on. But in fairness to most posters, I don't think anyone really thinks moving JOC (James O'Connor) to 12 or Hynes at 15 or whatever is going to be the silver bullet.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Gagger,

He has essentially had one game for the wallabies. It was average, but lets not judge him yet.

Just as I didn't judge JOC (James O'Connor) when he had a few poor games at fullback last year.

Both players have potential, and both have weaknesses. Long term JOC (James O'Connor) is more likely to be part of the team (due to his superior skills), Fa'ainga's involvement will depend on game plan and who is playing inside him (he is basically another Nathan Grey).

I agree on all. But the idea AF's cemented the run on 12 jersey over anyone else at this stage is as laughable as Chiefs defence of it.
 

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
it is for me completely obvious - after 7 2010 Tests - that Williams as forwards coach and Graham as (apparently) back line coach are, at best, woefully unable to do their jobs with these Wallabies or, at worst, simply incompetent at Test level. ... It is almost certainly the case IMO that they require urgent replacement under RD, and that other specialist coaches are required in addition: namely, mental skills and defence, at least.

Summarily, whatever we think of RD, the whole coaching infrastructure beneath him appears badly broken, and is not delivering on the ground where it matters.

Interesting that Peter Harding never gets a mention. I conclude from this that most people feel our physical conditioning is quite satisfactory.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Interesting that Peter Harding never gets a mention. I conclude from this that most people feel our physical conditioning is quite satisfactory.

It may not be great but it certainly isn't or number 1 problem at the moment. In fact it is a fair way down my list. I know its your baby Bruce but our tactical ineptitude far outweighs our physical ineptitude.
 

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
our tactical ineptitude far outweighs our physical ineptitude.

Parhaps the two are linked, barbarian. Physical deficiencies constrain a team's tactical options.

Do you really think that the Wallabies presently could play with the same level of intensity as the All Blacks?
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The intensity is there but when they are unable to do anything with the ball it will inevitably be turned over for a rapid score to the ABs. The Wallabies did not play any better against the Bok in Brisvegas but the Bok lack the skills to execute as the ABs did. The very poor defense stats for the Wobs are pretty telling. It is down to technique and not not physical statue.

Don't forget we "discussed" at length the differences between the speed and strength training required between pigs and backs and the problems created by the homogenous training methods we have seen in the past.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Obviously not

Im a big A.Fainga fan but i have to agree that he has NOT earned his starting spot. I recon Barnes was better at shutting down nonu, he only "just" slipped off a few tackles but was quick to get up into nonu's face, and got a good hit early on. I guess his mindset at shutting down nonu was much better then A.Fainga's but his execution probably wasnt there tho cos he did miss a few. A.Fainga known as a good defensive option but after that performance im questioning his defensive ability. Maybe his combination with gits n AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is poor. He's gotta step up!
 
C

chief

Guest
I agree on all. But the idea AF's cemented the run on 12 jersey over anyone else at this stage is as laughable as Chiefs defence of it.

Laughable? Who was there to replace him, we have Berrick Barnes who had a bad super 14 on form, and didn't play well in the first Bledisloe, hasn't played well at all really. We have a selection at 12 for JOC (James O'Connor) which has barely any merit to it as he hasn't played #12 at International level. You'd have to be pretty brave to bring in JOC (James O'Connor) to inside centre to start against an in form AB's team. So logically you bring in Fainga'a to the team because he deserved that spot at 12. Why? Because he played good in the Baba's tests, and in the S14. And there's no Quade Cooper. Really my idea that he earnt a starting spot seems a lot less less "laughable" than your persistence to have JOC (James O'Connor) at 12.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
Laughable? Who was there to replace him, we have Berrick Barnes who had a bad super 14 on form, and didn't play well in the first Bledisloe, hasn't played well at all really. We have a selection at 12 for JOC (James O'Connor) which has barely any merit to it as he hasn't played #12 at International level. You'd have to be pretty brave to bring in JOC (James O'Connor) to inside centre to start against an in form AB's team. So logically you bring in Fainga'a to the team because he deserved that spot at 12. Why? Because he played good in the Baba's tests, and in the S14. And there's no Quade Cooper. Really my idea that he earnt a starting spot seems a lot less less "laughable" than your persistence to have JOC (James O'Connor) at 12.

I think you may have missed his point just slightly, I think he meant "cemented" like Fatcat has cemented his position.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top