School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[sidelineview]

In a sport that's struggling for participants, robbing "lesser" schools' Rugby programs by throwing scholarships around does nothing for the sport and is purely about the egos of those schools who employ such scholarships. It simultaneously makes other school's programs less skilled, and less attractive for other participants. Personally, I think a good Rugby school is one that aims to develop players and grow the sport, not one that buys talent to chase trophies.

I'd walk away from a Rugby club that thought this was the way to operate their junior Rugby teams and I don't see why anyone should view schools differently.

There is however, a lot of competition from league.

All attempts should be made to secure or introduce talented players to the game in schools and Clubs.

In fact local clubs should be kept in the loop re any talented new players at any given school so those players can graduate to Colts with that club after leaving school.

It's not all about talented players of course but rugby in this country is struggling enough without political correctness putting up obstacles for any bright young prospects in the game.

 

[BAR]

There is however, a lot of competition from league. All attempts should be made to secure or introduce talented players to the game in schools and Clubs...

I agree. At the risk of repeating recent comments on another forum, Rugby is very passive in identifying and developing young talent. I don't advocate single sport junior athletes or professionalisation at a young age but there is a huge contrast between Rugby and League. League actively looks for young talented players and provides development opportunities through specialist coaches and match opportunities. I was approached by an NRL rep on the sidelines of a League club match when my son was 12yo. By contrast, junior Rugby players have to self nominate into rep programs and the aim there is to pick tthe best squad on current ability, not necessarily to develop players of the future. Among my sons teammates and friends at age 14 a number of the multicode players are committed to a future in League because of those NRL development opportunities that started a couple of years ago.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

wow . this thread seems to have died of natural causes . ie old age?!

in an attempt to resuscitate it . with a New Headmaster .. I hope from a Waverley College perspective they bring back scholarships . actually what I would like to see is bursaries . ie ONLY scholarships for those with low financial means

under the previous WavCol headmaster, scholarships all but evaporated, you had to seemingly tick every box . and rightly or wrongly they evaporated

and it became open season on Waverley's sporting talent

now I am not one to reward "knuckleheads" . so I think having quite a few boxes to tick is fair enough.. however should be at the headmasters discretion IMHO

just because you are good at rugby or whatever other sport means nothing . if you just a neanderthal, or any early developer . with a bad attitude and on a collision course with ###

and I am also one that thinks WavCol's academics are not far off diabolical . certainly relative to earlier generations

so genuine academic scholarships , and/or all rounder scholarships

and personally I don't see that they can't be funded by old boys

anyway think WavCol has a great opportunity here , and by all accounts a great new leader

now whether the blessed Edmund Rice gives him the necessary free hand to make some needed changes, time will tell

I think it died because the only comp that bans it embarrassed their most consistent breacher into a back down and an admission of some anomalies.

 

[sidelineview]

I agree. At the risk of repeating recent comments on another forum, Rugby is very passive in identifying and developing young talent. I don't advocate single sport junior athletes or professionalisation at a young age but there is a huge contrast between Rugby and League. League actively looks for young talented players and provides development opportunities through specialist coaches and match opportunities. I was approached by an NRL rep on the sidelines of a League club match when my son was 12yo. By contrast, junior Rugby players have to self nominate into rep programs and the aim there is to pick tthe best squad on current ability, not necessarily to develop players of the future. Among my sons teammates and friends at age 14 a number of the multicode players are committed to a future in League because of those NRL development opportunities that started a couple of years ago.

In the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney quite a few young league kids end up going to private high schools where rugby is their only choice if they want to continue playing footy.

Some give up league on a Sunday and only play rugby for their schools on Saturdays and some continue to play both codes. If these kids make Rep teams for league it can clash with school footy and cause some conflict, but these kids continue to play rugby for their schools.

So the league kids become temporary or permanent ''converts'' to rugby because of the schools.

If they are met with success in schoolboy rugby, enjoy the game and have some good coaches they can make a choice to continue with rugby after they leave school.

It happens, but not because of any proactive efforts from the rugby governing bodies.

A lot more can be done to attract young footy players to the game through Primary and High schools and to keep them.

As SDW pointed out there are opportunities for rugby to build their playing numbers through schools like Waverley College where incentives can be offered to talented young footy players. This should be in cahoots with a local Club and rugby governing bodies.

The Randwick Club has struck up a good relationship with Waverley College which is a good start but what else is being done all around the country to secure young talent and promote the game ?

 

[BRUMBIEJACK]

Re Wavcol academics, there is no relative 'measure' of how schools go, not what types of ppl they produce. The SMH measure is an artificial one, but even if you take it as THE measure then the 2017 HSC class got the 2nd best result to date. As the previous headmaster said at a P&F meeting, old boys who say 'we went much better in my day' actually have no idea as there was no relative measure between years in the same school let alone between schools until the SMH came up with what it does. BTW, last year's Yr 12 made the debating GF for the first time ever (?), were joint premiers in CAS rugby, 2nd best ever Band 6 (SMH recorded) results for the school. I'd say for the resources the school has that's pretty impressive, rather than 'diabolical'. What data do you base your diabolical comment on ? And remember that Christian Brothers schools were established for a particular purpose.




Re Wavcol academic result

wow . this thread seems to have died of natural causes . ie old age?!

in an attempt to resuscitate it . with a New Headmaster .. I hope from a Waverley College perspective they bring back scholarships . actually what I would like to see is bursaries . ie ONLY scholarships for those with low financial means

under the previous WavCol headmaster, scholarships all but evaporated, you had to seemingly tick every box . and rightly or wrongly they evaporated

and it became open season on Waverley's sporting talent

now I am not one to reward "knuckleheads" . so I think having quite a few boxes to tick is fair enough.. however should be at the headmasters discretion IMHO

just because you are good at rugby or whatever other sport means nothing . if you just a neanderthal, or any early developer . with a bad attitude and on a collision course with ###

and I am also one that thinks WavCol's academics are not far off diabolical . certainly relative to earlier generations

so genuine academic scholarships , and/or all rounder scholarships

and personally I don't see that they can't be funded by old boys

anyway think WavCol has a great opportunity here , and by all accounts a great new leader

now whether the blessed Edmund Rice gives him the necessary free hand to make some needed changes, time will tell

s, there is no relative 'measure' of how schools go, not what types of ppl they produce. The SMH measure is an artificial one, but even if you take it as THE measure then the 2017 HSC class got the 2nd best result to date. As the headmaster said at a P&F meeting, old boys who say 'we went much better in my day' actually have no idea as there was no relative measure until the SMH came up with what it does. Last year's Yr 12 made the debating GF for the first time ever (?), were joint premiers in CAS rugby, 2nd best ever Band 6 results for the school. I'd say for the resources the school has that's pretty impressive, rather than 'diabolical'. What data do you base your diabolical comment on ?

 

[Quick Hands]

It seems that Barker may be about to breath new life into this thread. I hear that they have been very active.

(Noting that CAS schools have no prohibition on scholarships - although this may need to change if any sort of combined competition is formalised)

 

[moa999]

Be interesting to see Knox 13As (edited) in 2019 - will form the backbone of the 2024 1sts - Knox's centenery (as the youngest GPS/CAS school)

Cranbrook is next year 2018 although don't think current 1sts/16as as strong as prior years.

Many old timers will recall what occurred in some of these milestone years at other schools

 

[Peabody]

Be interesting to see Knox 13As next year - will form the backbone of the 2024 1sts - Knox's centenery (as the youngest GPS/CAS school)

Cranbrook is next year 2018 although don't think current 1sts/16as as strong as prior years.

Many old timers will recall what occurred in some of these milestone years at other schools

Next year's 13As finish school in 2023 - try the 2019 13As

 

[moa999]

Good point. fixed
Albeit a number of the younger boys end up splitting yr 12

 

[Inside Shoulder]

for those in the GPS thread wondering:

 

[Paddogreen]

The issue with Grammar is that it’s not just Rugby, its every other AAGPS endeavour. They are perennial under achievers, where it would seem a well-rounded education is thought to be that you are good at Maths and English. In stark contrast to High who regularly top the AAGPS leader board on ATAR results and for the last 2 years have more AAGPS trophies than any other school

 

[Boof]

Haven't seen many parents sides of the story on this thread, so I can tell you that as a parent of a "scouted son " by NSW and Qld GPS schools there are negatives and positives but the positives far out weigh the negatives for both the school and the boy IF as a parent you do your due diligence and make sure you don't just jump at the first chance. The other boys who are "enrolled " ( like mines not ! ) want their team / crew / squad to be bigger, better and faster and want the opportunity to chase trophies themselves and be a GPS champion.
BUT I do realise that he has taken someone's spot, which I might add was not theirs by birthright you have to deliver the goods to be part of these 1st sides. My young bloke has worked very hard to get to this point and these kids who work harder than most stand out.
Scholarships are alive and kicking they are just handled differently in each state obviously very openly in QLD and not so in NSW, there are plenty of boxes to tick and hoops to jump thru in a lengthy process of elimination, they do not hand them out to fools for 1- do not aspire to improve grades or 2 - show a lack of respect or discipline. This was a theme across all schools we spoke to.
There comes great responsibility being a scholarship kid who turns up mid year, as you do need to be the X factor, from day one it' s an expectation by all, the school, other boys and parents. Your son and yourself ( parent functions )have to willing to take that challenge BUT its the most amazing reward for effort for a lad that would not otherwise have had the chance for which we and he are most great full and he is busting his gut to make a difference for his new team mates who are also rising to the occasion. I understand this is not how everyone looks at it but this our experience.
and NO I will not be divulging the school or state.

 

[Rugby Central]

and NO I will not be divulging the school or state.

And nor should you given the feelings expressed by some posters. Thank you for sharing your experience and what it's like on the other side of the fence.

While I am currently agnostic about scholarships, as long as they provide a benefit and opportunity to the student they would not otherwise have then good luck. If it just so a trophy can be purchased for a Centenary year, or such, then I am against it because the child is not the consideration.

 

[Spin it out]

How about 5 match points to the team for each scholarship/bursary player that an opposing school team has. eg If Scots had 7 scholarship players on the field and Shore has none, then a 35-NIL head start to Shore might even up these matches

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The issue with Grammar is that it’s not just Rugby, its every other AAGPS endeavour. They are perennial under achievers, where it would seem a well-rounded education is thought to be that you are good at Maths and English. In stark contrast to High who regularly top the AAGPS leader board on ATAR results and for the last 2 years have more AAGPS trophies than any other school

they are unforgivably shit house at english

 

[Boof]

And nor should you given the feelings expressed by some posters. Thank you for sharing your experience and what it's like on the other side of the fence.

I would certainly encourage other parents who may observe this thread in silence to share their experiences, its nothing to be ashamed of, its quite something to be proud of, you just have to know not everyone agrees and that's ok.

 

[Boof]

While I am currently agnostic about scholarships, as long as they provide a benefit and opportunity to the student they would not otherwise have then good luck. If it just so a trophy can be purchased for a Centenary year, or such, then I am against it because the child is not the consideration.

A well rounded experience both in and away from sport was how we made our choice, with the chosen school doing it particularly well with a very genuine desire for scholarships recipients to gain the max out of the offer academically, socially and sport

 

[Quick Hands]

for those in the GPS thread wondering:

I pretty much agree with what Dr Kirk says (although I note he neglects TKS circa 2002). His criticisms of TSC and NC during the period in question were also the subject of numerous adverse comments on this thread. (Correctly so IMO).

I suspect that the situation now is that 5 of the 6 schools in the 1st XV competition recruit to some extent (perhaps some more than others). It seems that the result of basketballgate is that the Hawkes doctrine is now in use (one or two is alright, but don't take it too far). Still against the rules and still affecting the competition and worthy of criticism.

One thing that I found odd in Dr Kirk's comments was when he said something like "we'd like to enrol more sportsmen at Grammar, but they wouldn't fit in with the modern Grammar". Seemed an odd thing to say - maybe I have misread it.

 

[Quick Hands]

Haven't seen many parents sides of the story on this thread, so I can tell you that as a parent of a "scouted son " by NSW and Qld GPS schools there are negatives and positives but the positives far out weigh the negatives for both the school and the boy IF as a parent you do your due diligence and make sure you don't just jump at the first chance. The other boys who are "enrolled " ( like mines not ! ) want their team / crew / squad to be bigger, better and faster and want the opportunity to chase trophies themselves and be a GPS champion.
BUT I do realise that he has taken someone's spot, which I might add was not theirs by birthright you have to deliver the goods to be part of these 1st sides. My young bloke has worked very hard to get to this point and these kids who work harder than most stand out.
Scholarships are alive and kicking they are just handled differently in each state obviously very openly in QLD and not so in NSW, there are plenty of boxes to tick and hoops to jump thru in a lengthy process of elimination, they do not hand them out to fools for 1- do not aspire to improve grades or 2 - show a lack of respect or discipline. This was a theme across all schools we spoke to.
There comes great responsibility being a scholarship kid who turns up mid year, as you do need to be the X factor, from day one it' s an expectation by all, the school, other boys and parents. Your son and yourself ( parent functions )have to willing to take that challenge BUT its the most amazing reward for effort for a lad that would not otherwise have had the chance for which we and he are most great full and he is busting his gut to make a difference for his new team mates who are also rising to the occasion. I understand this is not how everyone looks at it but this our experience.
and NO I will not be divulging the school or state.

I have no probem with your comments at all. I think that you'll find that nobody on this thread has ever criticised either a boy or his parents for taking an opportunity offered to them. The criticism has been directed at the relevant school and/or Headmaster for breaking rules to which they have subscribed.

There's no doubt that on an individual basis, there is a benefit. The wider view looks at how it impacts on the competition as a whole and thus the schools and the students who attend those schools. The Sydney experience seems to be that the practice has led to two of the eight schools no longer being able to compete at the level that they had for over 100 years - and a third school with a distinct wobble (although still reasonable).

Well done to your boy for making the most of an opportunity, it's a credit to him. (Not all boys take the non-sporting opportunities that are presented though)

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I pretty much agree with what Dr Kirk says (although I note he neglects TKS circa 2002). His criticisms of TSC and NC during the period in question were also the subject of numerous adverse comments on this thread. (Correctly so IMO).

I suspect that the situation now is that 5 of the 6 schools in the 1st XV competition recruit to some extent (perhaps some more than others). It seems that the result of basketballgate is that the Hawkes doctrine is now in use (one or two is alright, but don't take it too far). Still against the rules and still affecting the competition and worthy of criticism.

One thing that I found odd in Dr Kirk's comments was when he said something like "we'd like to enrol more sportsmen at Grammar, but they wouldn't fit in with the modern Grammar". Seemed an odd thing to say - maybe I have misread it.

As I recall it Andy Haden bagged him for sitting in a Fiji airport reading a book waiting for their flight back home. It may come from that view in reverse.
I think he may be feeding a stereotype - which is pretty much how they finished up where they have: Mackerras and successors assumed that if you are good at sport you are not and can never be an intellectual or a good scholar.