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Rugby Championship 2012: Our forwards!

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Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Lindommer; oh come on, I recall you blaming the 2007 WC performance on the amount of Reds in the side! In reality, we all know it was because of the high amount of Tahs.

Regards to Timani: I am amused at the sudden "rock-shifter" descriptions. Most of his cleanouts were no more accurate than Simmons vs Scotland and in the first Welsh test. The highlights sort of failed to pick up how often he was standing midfield and standing in tight. Bit concerned about how many of our chosen forward pack like to be midfield. (Oh, and the two missed tackles were plain, both being near the start.)

More seriously:

For a huge imposing lock, Timani failed to impose himself physically on the game - compare to say Brad Thorn, who has a much smaller frame yet imposed himself more physically in the tackle and rucks. Yes, the cleanouts were mostly accurate (and it's not the hardest with a decent body height - which is a credit to Timani - with that frame), but they, and the tackles, were hardly punishing like is being inferred. The offloads are a plus for a second rower, but by any means if you're selecting a second rower mainly because he can run over people and give offloads, then you're selecting a second rower for the wrong reason.

The concern is why they called Palu in the lineout (and fluffed it royally) over Timani.

Am I being too hard a marker? Probably. But Timani currently isn't a test lock, just like Horne currently isn't a test 13. The fact that we are selecting both of them is probably a statement of both our current depth in those positions, and Deans favourites. The fact that it's really only Tahs supporters justifying their selections (with other supporters picking varoius other players) tells the story of how contentious it is.

Does the high amount of Tahs starting concern me? Yes, especially as most of them weren't in top form. (And once again, note the province that all the supporters are from defending the high amount of Tahs, when they accuse the accusers of provincialism, for those with a sense of irony, or ironing for Slim.) Say what you will about the Tahs coaching staff, but if those 8 starting Tahs in the Wallaby side were performing this year for the Tahs, their win-loss record would be better. In saying that, most of their selections were justifiable, but it doesn't mean that it does not worry me.

And AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)? Wouldn't be in my team at fullback with McCabe and Horne as centres (although in the first test AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) made me eat my words as he actually passed a few times). In terms of width and ability to spread the ball, the Wallaby backline from the first two tests is one of the worst in my memory, and if we play it in the TRC I doubt we'll score enough points to win a game against SA or NZ.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
For a huge imposing lock, Timani failed to impose himself physically on the game - compare to say Brad Thorn, who has a much smaller frame yet imposed himself more physically in the tackle and rucks. Yes, the cleanouts were mostly accurate (and it's not the hardest with a decent body height - which is a credit to Timani - with that frame), but they, and the tackles, were hardly punishing like is being inferred. The offloads are a plus for a second rower, but by any means if you're selecting a second rower mainly because he can run over people and give offloads, then you're selecting a second rower for the wrong reason.

The concern is why they called Palu in the lineout (and fluffed it royally) over Timani.

Am I being too hard a marker? Probably. But Timani currently isn't a test lock, just like Horne currently isn't a test 13. The fact that we are selecting both of them is probably a statement of both our current depth in those positions, and Deans favourites. The fact that it's really only Tahs supporters justifying their selections (with other supporters picking varoius other players) tells the story of how contentious it is.

It was his third test FFS, and you say he comes away unfavourably in comparison to Brad Thorn! I think you've answered your 'hard marker' question right there.

And explaining the support of Timani away because of 'provincialism' is just a lazy argument. I would have loved to have seen Pyle and Carter have a go as well. But when a player puts in a solid performance in one of his first few tests I will call it for what it is, just like Dan Palmer against the Scots or Hooper off the bench against the Welsh.
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Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
It was his third test FFS, and you say he comes away unfavourably in comparison to Brad Thorn! I think you've answered your 'hard marker' question right there.

And explaining the support of Timani away because of 'provincialism' is just a lazy argument. I would have loved to have seen Pyle and Carter have a go as well. But when a player puts in a solid performance in one of his first few tests I will call it for what it is, just like Dan Palmer against the Scots or Hooper off the bench against the Welsh.
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Thorn is much smaller than Timani, and had a much bigger physical presence, which is my point. A lot of the justifications are about his physical presence, outside of his runs I failed to see a bigger physical than Simmons offered off the bench against Scotland. Really, there's just been some ridiculuous "rock-mover" comments about him. It's about a whole heap of potential, rather that what he delivered. I know you are defending his performance, and honestly it wasn't that bad, but honestly, it wasn't that good either.

Regard provincialism, fair enough with you, but how many non-Tahs supporters have been loudly defending Timani's and Horne's selections? If you don't think pronvincialism has anything to do with who is defending Timinani's selection and who is criticising it both, then I don't know what to say.

Seriously, if Timani was from the Reds, or Rebels, or whatever, and had only played a couple games of SupeRugby this year where his highlights were a few big runs (yes, I've been watching, and have not been impressed outside a couple of runs), then it would be some of the defenders on here criticising him, and the same Reds and others defending him.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Thorn is much smaller than Timani, and had a much bigger physical presence, which is my point. A lot of the justifications are about his physical presence, outside of his runs I failed to see a bigger physical than Simmons offered off the bench against Scotland. Really, there's just been some ridiculuous "rock-mover" comments about him. It's about a whole heap of potential, rather that what he delivered. I know you are defending his performance, and honestly it wasn't that bad, but honestly, it wasn't that good either.


Yes but the 80+ tests may have something to do with that presence, he didn't have it from day 1.

And you say with Timani that it was 'all about potential' and I agree. It still is, that's the thing. Same with Simmons after three tests. I hope that after a couple more tests he will develop this presence more, because if he does he will be a very good player. That is somethign Simmons hasn't done. At the moment Timani is a passable international second rower with clear areas for improvement. Robbie is obviously betting that he will improve. Is it a bet I'd make? Maybe. I would certainly have a look at Pyle before I do though.


Regard provincialism, fair enough with you, but how many non-Tahs supporters have been loudly defending Timani's and Horne's selections? If you don't think pronvincialism has anything to do with who is defending Timinani's selection and who is criticising it both, then I don't know what to say.

Seriously, if Timani was from the Reds, or Rebels, or whatever, and had only played a couple games of SupeRugby this year where his highlights were a few big runs (yes, I've been watching, and have not been impressed outside a couple of runs), then it would be some of the defenders on here criticising him, and the same Reds and others defending him.

I don't know, I don't keep track of this stuff. It just angers me that for some (not necessarily you) the default position when someone defends Rob Horne is "oh he must be a Tahs fan". Or Fainga'a - "he must be a Reds fan" etc. etc.

There are a few guys here who do look at the world through lenses of a particular taint, but by and large most of the guys here analyse the game from a largely neutral perspective IMO.

It's just an easy slur to make on someone after making a particular argument- "you must be a fan of team X" and discounts the merits of said argument. Although I agree some people are on another planet (like the guy commenting on Bob Dwyer's latest post who suggested Adam Wallace-Harrison should be the starting Wallaby lock).
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Athilnaur

Arch Winning (36)
Barbar's video footage captured Timani's efforts quite well, but it has done little to change my view that he lacks drive. I have a similar criticism of him that I do Simmons, he isn't showing the level of commitment I expect from a test player. It isn't a matter of how many games he has played, Hooper and Sharp both equally show the commitment required./

If he did bring it I think his game - like Simmons - would be transformed.
 
P

Paradox

Guest
Timani plays about 20 kgs below his actual weight. Tah fans should be outraged he was selected over Douglas.

Anyway, my forwards would be

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Palmer
4. Sharpe
5. Simmons
6. Higginbotham
7. BAM BAM
8. Palu

Kepu, TPN, Dennis, and Douglas on bench. Palmer's work rate is fine. This side should win clean first phase ball.

No doubt I'll be accused of provincialism for selecting Palmer and Moore. I know this is a forward thread but if we had all players available, I'd select maybe 1 or 2 Brumbies in the back line (Lilo (10) and Tomane (14). Clearly I see all things through one eye as I've selected a whopping 3 or 4 Brumbies in the starting XV.
 
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Paradox

Guest
I don't know, I don't keep track of this stuff. It just angers me that for some (not necessarily you) the default position when someone defends Rob Horne is "oh he must be a Tahs fan". Or Fainga'a - "he must be a Reds fan" etc. etc.
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Sorry Baa Baa, that is not what happens. What happens is that if someone criticises the likes of Horne or Timani, they are immediately accused of provincialism and an anti-NSW sentiment. For the record, my preferred 22 would probably feature the likes of Palu, TPN, Kepu, Robinson, Barnes, Dennis, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Douglas.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Sorry Baa Baa, that is not what happens. What happens is that if someone criticises the likes of Horne or Timani, they are immediately accused of provincialism and an anti-NSW sentiment. For the record, my preferred 22 would probably feature the likes of Palu, TPN, Kepu, Robinson, Barnes, Dennis, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Douglas.

Where? Much like calling out DPK on the backs thread, I'm doing the same to you here. Give me a few examples please, because I certainly think you are talking out your arse here.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
My issue with Simmons is his inconsistency from game to game. He just can go missing the next game after looking like he could belong at test level the previous game.

And agree that we don't have a second test level lock to partner Sharpe with Horwill out. All the others are being picked on potential. Simmons has the advantage in being slightly ahead in development terms only.
 
P

Paradox

Guest
Post Wales game, I posted my disappointment in the likes of Timani, Horne and Kepu (noting Kepu has a good series though) and that TPNs throwing was off. I thought Palu had a good game and also stated that. Immediately following my posting I was hit with a post from your mate Cyclopath ridiculing my post and stating it was all an anti-NSW conspiracy or something similar.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Tah fans should be outraged he was selected over Douglas.

I think the point is the fact that Douglas wasn't selected is largely irrelevant now.

We're trying to assess Timani on the basis of why we think he was selected (presumably because Deans sees his physicality as something that can be really developed) and how he played against Wales (which was pretty well with a couple of good offloads and good accuracy at the breakdown).

Continuing to argue that someone else should have been selected seems quite pointless at this point because they weren't selected.

I think everyone would like to see Pyle and Douglas get a crack at the Wallabies.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
It was his third test FFS, and you say he comes away unfavourably in comparison to Brad Thorn! I think you've answered your 'hard marker' question right there.

And explaining the support of Timani away because of 'provincialism' is just a lazy argument. I would have loved to have seen Pyle and Carter have a go as well. But when a player puts in a solid performance in one of his first few tests I will call it for what it is, just like Dan Palmer against the Scots or Hooper off the bench against the Welsh.
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The key difference is that most would agree that Hooper and Palmer are in the top two in their position based on super xv form. Timani isn't, and therefore he is going to get marked harder when there are more deserving players not getting a chance. Nothing against him, just the selectors that decided he could 'jump the queue'.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
What queue? This sounds like the bloody asylum seeker debate.

Maybe the rationale is that there are two lock queues. One of them contains guys like Sharpe, Simmons, Pyle and maybe Douglas

The other contains Horwill, Timani and maybe Douglas.

With no Horwill and Vickerman gone, the selectors might be after an enforcer and they consider Timani the best option available for that.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
The key difference is that most would agree that Hooper and Palmer are in the top two in their position based on super xv form. Timani isn't, and therefore he is going to get marked harder when there are more deserving players not getting a chance. Nothing against him, just the selectors that decided he could 'jump the queue'.

I agree that his selection was controversial. Most wouldn't have picked him, myself included.

But surely in reviewing the game we can divorce ourself from that and assess his game on it's merits, and not be accused of provincialism if we take a mild view either way (that he was decent or below average).
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