Rugby Championship 2012: Our forwards!

[TOCC]

The problem I have with Simmons is I have never seen him have a good game for the Wallabies. He's certainly had a few solid games where he does the hard yards, but I've never seen him do anything out of the ordinary- big hits, good runs, offloads, link play. Maybe a lineout steal but can't remember one off the top of my head.

He's had 12 (?) tests now and to be honest I was hoping for him to develop more than he has. So that's why I would advocate trying someone else for a while. I would play Pyle, but it looks like Deans would go Timani.

In short Timani played exactly the same game Simmons did for the first two games of the Welsh series. The numbers stack up about evenly- plenty of tackles, only one missed (actually that disregards the first game where Simmons missed a number of soft tackles). A couple of runs for a small metre gain.

So I think it's much of a muchness at the moment frankly.
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I'm sorry but I think this is a Inherit problem with Australian rugby... A player doesn't need to make a big hit, off-load or make a line-break to emphasize that they have had a good game.. That may be the role of the backrowers but the second row is much more workmanlike with stats measured in rucks, lineouts, mauls and scrums..

We don't need 'x-factor' in every player..

 

[Joe Mac]

We lose nothing replacing him with Simmons but we also gain nothing. At least with Timani there is a huge potential upside if he can tweak a few areas of his game, the key being his aggression.

After watching Barbarian's video posted this week, I think we all need to suck it up and give the behemoth a few games to build some confidence...

 

[barbarian]

I'm sorry but I think this is a Inherit problem with Australian rugby. A player doesn't need to make a big hit, off-load or make a line-break to emphasize that they have had a good game.. That may be the role of the backrowers but the second row is much more workmanlike with stats measured in rucks, lineouts, mauls and scrums..

That's true in a sense. But at the international level you need to do more than just hit rucks and make tackles to be classed as a good second rower. If you are just going to do the basics, you have to do them fucking well to hold your spot in an international side.

Simmons does them solidly enough. His tackle stats are good but not great, his ruck involvement is good but not great, same with his lineout work. In short he has never excelled at doing the basics- he's been OK and not much more.

It leaves him exposed, because when a player comes along who can do all that to roughly the same standard AND has an offloading game then he finds himself on the bench.
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[chequebalance]

I am still waiting for Rocky Elsom to regain his Leinster form

 

[TOCC]

That's true in a sense. But at the international level you need to do more than just hit rucks and make tackles to be classed as a good second rower. If you are just going to do the basics, you have to do them fucking well to hold your spot in an international side.

Simmons does them solidly enough. His tackle stats are good but not great, his ruck involvement is good but not great, same with his lineout work. In short he has never excelled at doing the basics- he's been OK and not much more.

It leaves him exposed, because when a player comes along who can do all that to roughly the same standard AND has an offloading game then he finds himself on the bench.
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The point is Australian Rugby generally favors the player who may make 2 big hits a game and does his basics to an barely average level over a player who is "solid" yet doesn't make the big plays..

Second Row is a position where we need the basics done solidly, winning a lineout at a consistent level is more important then a big hit IMO.. Whilst a big hit may turn the ball over, losing a lineout will definitely turn the ball over.

When a player comes along who can do the basics better then good, promote him to the starting team.. Simple as that

 

[Groucho]

Funny you say that, as in the two games they started together we actually had a better scrum than when timani was playing. How can we explain that?

Scotty, I think the Welsh got their act together on the final day.

But I'm still picking Sharpe and Simmons, for similar reasons as you.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think with each position it's important to look at what the core skills required are and then the nice to haves. With front rowers, it's the ability to scrummage, lift in the lineouts and at the restart. With locks it's catching the ball at the lineout/restart and pushing in the scrum, though having the athletic jumper and rock shifter combination (a la Big Vic and Bakkies) is obviously ideal. I have seen some players picked for Australia over the years (like Ben Alexander) who are great in the nice to have areas, but not in their core skills. If tight forwards want to gallop around the paddock, they should get fitter and become back rowers.

So give me tight forwards who execute those core skills at a high level and if they can do the other stuff, then that makes them even more valuable.

 

[barbarian]

The point is Australian Rugby generally favors the player who may make 2 big hits a game and does his basics to an barely average level over a player who is "solid" yet doesn't make the big plays..

Second Row is a position where we need the basics done solidly, winning a lineout at a consistent level is more important then a big hit IMO.. Whilst a big hit may turn the ball over, losing a lineout will definitely turn the ball over.

When a player comes along who can do the basics better then good, promote him to the starting team.. Simple as that

Once again in principle I agree with you.

But I think you are implying Timani does nothing except a few big hits, and can't jump in the lineout. To which I point to 2 things- his contribution and stats from Saturday, and his lineout work from the Tahs which is generally good.
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[Scoey]

Dicsussions on locks always facinate me. I've always believed that if a lock plays well you probably won't notice them (to a degree). Being a lock all of my playing days makes me somewhat biased, but as with a lot of positions, players who have never played there will oft critique an aspect of your game and clearly know nothing of your role. Which is why I don't comment on dicussions to do with the front row or anything to do with those pretty guys that score all the points.

As for Timani, well I guess I've been underwhelmed by him to a degree. Not because he's a Tahs player, not because I'm a Reds fan, but because of what I wished like hell he'd be able to do. I know this is not fair to the big rig, but it's the way it is. I haven't seen enough of him to comment on his abilities doing the general lock duties so I can't really comment on whether he should or shouldn't be there.

He's in the squad but, so for consistency's sake leave him there!

 

[TOCC]

Once again in principle I agree with you.

But I think you are implying Timani does nothing except a few big hits, and can't jump in the lineout. To which I point to 2 things- his contribution and stats from Saturday, and his lineout work from the Tahs which is generally good.
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No I'm not talking specifically about Timani, I haven't watched him enough to gauge, if he is better in the line-outs, scrums, mauls and rucks and has a good workrate then he should be starting..

From what be seen Timani plays a lot like a backrowers/number 8. Not a bad thing, just hope the balance in the team is right.

 

[barbarian]

Did you see the video compilation from Saturday? I sort of thought the same, but have stepped back a bit from that opinion. He did a lot of grunt work, and the stats support that.

 

[fatprop]

Looking at rugby stats (http://www.rugbystats.com.au/rugby/index.html)

I was quite surprised how little lineout work Timani does for the Tahs as well.

I would love to learn why... ...

Is it simply that he is the middle jumper and teams often now go short or long

Or is it the guy isn't good enough at it.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think his average handling must play a part.

It might also be that they didn't play him much in the first half of the season so by then they were already using Palu, Dennis and Douglas a lot.

 

[fatprop]

I think his average handling must play a part.

It might also be that they didn't play him much in the first half of the season so by then they were already using Palu, Dennis and Douglas a lot.

maybe, though his handling has been fine for 18 months (decent forward training does that ) and his error rate is low at lineout (the little he is required to do)

 

[Braveheart81]

It was pretty bad against the Hurricanes however I agree with you that it has come on in leaps and bounds since he started playing for the Tahs and generally been good this season.

When he started, he couldn't catch a cold.

 

[Bullrush]

I am still waiting for Rocky Elsom to regain his Leinster form

I'd suggest you'd need him to go back to Leinster then. Or a competition at a lower level than internationals.

HC form, Super Rugby form.....neither of these mean a player is dead-cert top drawer Test player.

 

[chequebalance]

I'd suggest you'd need him to go back to Leinster then. Or a competition at a lower level than internationals.

HC form, Super Rugby form...neither of these mean a player is dead-cert top drawer Test player.

Should have used the I guess.

 

[doondoonsley]

Assuming we have no injuries I think our best forward pack is:
1. Ben Robinson
2. Stephen Moore
3. Ben Alexander
4. Nathan Sharpe
5. Dan Vickerman
6. Scott Higgenbotham
7. David Pocock
8. Wyclif Palu

Our "2nd VIII" if you like, who could are either very close to starters, or bench would be:
1. James Slipper
2. Tatafu Polota Nau
3. Sekope Kepi
4. James Horwill
5. Hugh Pyle
6. Rocky Elsom
7. Michael Hooper
8. Ben Mowen/Dave Dennis

 

[What2040]

Assuming we have no injuries I think our best forward pack is:
1. Ben Robinson
2. Stephen Moore
3. Ben Alexander
4. Nathan Sharpe
5. Dan Vickerman
6. Scott Higgenbotham
7. David Pocock
8. Wyclif Palu

Our "2nd VIII" if you like, who could are either very close to starters, or bench would be:
1. James Slipper
2. Tatafu Polota Nau
3. Sekope Kepu
4. James Horwill
5. Hugh Pyle
6. Rocky Elsom
7. Michael Hooper
8. Ben Mowen/Dave Dennis

1sts
1. Slipper
2. Moore
3. kepu
4. sharpie
5. Simmons (cause Horwill injured)
6. Higgers.
7. Bam
8. Palu

2nds
1. Cowan then Robinson
2. TPN
3. Palmer then Benny A
4. Vickerman
5. Pyle
6. anybody but the Rock
7. Hooper then Gill (very close)
8. Dennis