Rugby Championship 2012: Our forwards!

[Braveheart81]

I think he probably justified his selection to the extent that he put in a decent performance.

If Pyle or Douglas had been selected instead and played like Timani did they'd almost certainly get another go.

It would seem at this point that Sharpe, Simmons and Timani are the favoured three locks in the country. Unless something dramatic happens in the last few rounds of Super Rugby, I'd be surprised if the pecking order changed at the start of TRC.

I would guess that if we play a 4:3 bench split, Dennis will continue to be the reserve lock and Timani won't be in the 22.

 

[TSR]

The non selection of other locks seems academic now, regardless of their merits. Failing injury, I can't imagine Deans will be rushing to debut a new lock against the ABs or South Africa and probably not Argentina either as it will be a chance for him to start Timani (assuming Simmons & Sharpe remain his first picks).

The only way I see this changing is if one of the Brumbies locks absolutely plays the house down in the last few weeks and the Brumbies go well into the finals. Even then I think it is unlikely.

Edit: If I had just waited another minute I could have just agreed with Bravehearts comment.

 

[Groucho]

Timani plays about 20 kgs below his actual weight. Tah fans should be outraged he was selected over Douglas.

Anyway, my forwards would be

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Palmer
4. Sharpe
5. Simmons
6. Higginbotham
7. BAM BAM
8. Palu

Kepu, TPN, Dennis, and Douglas on bench. Palmer's work rate is fine. This side should win clean first phase ball.

No doubt I'll be accused of provincialism for selecting Palmer and Moore. I know this is a forward thread but if we had all players available, I'd select maybe 1 or 2 Brumbies in the back line (Lilo (10) and Tomane (14). Clearly I see all things through one eye as I've selected a whopping 3 or 4 Brumbies in the starting XV.

The problem with any team with Sharpe and Simmons in it is that neither is a tight head lock, and in addition, both are comparatively soft in the scrum.

We're throwing around comparisons with Thorn as a measure of a player's worth. Well, Thorn pushes effectively in the scrum.

Having said that, in the absence of Horwill I'd pick Sharpe and Simmons. But it's a weakness in our run on side.

 

[Paradox]

I really didn't think Timani was that good. Whilst I might be harsh on him due to his mystifying selection (yes I admit I am but not because he is a Tah), he has not really made much of an impression after 3 tests.

The Tahs scrum struggled with Timani at lock against the Canes did they not? I don't think he's the hard enforcer we all want him to be.... I very much hope he makes me eat my words. How good would it be to have a hard bastard at TH lock?

Groucho, my selection of Palmer is to ensure a better scrum. We want out backs to have a real chance from 1st phase.

 

[Joe Blow]

Timani is not such a left field selection. Deans has had him "involved with the group" for a little over a year. He is one of Deans projects.
Our second row lacks grunt without Horwill and Deans sees just that in Timani. I hope he can drag it out of him.

 

[barbarian]

I must admit I am always skeptical of comments regarding locks abilities at the scrum. Unless you pack alongside them you never know their precise contribution. There are so many factors that go into a successful (or failing) scrum you can't really point the finger at any one person for its success or failure, especially not a lock.

The Tahs scrum have rarely been bested this year, both with and without Timani. The Wallabies scrum was the worst it has been on Saturday, but not by a huge amount, plus there are a number of explanations as to why that was the case that don't involve Timani.

I'm not saying he is a great scrummager or a poor scrummager. I'm saying it's almost impossible to know. For years it was said Sharpe was a shocking scrummager. But he was a part of all our great scrummaging performances of the last five years, and the failures as well. So I'm not sure what to think.
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[Scotty]

The problem with any team with Sharpe and Simmons in it is that neither is a tight head lock, and in addition, both are comparatively soft in the scrum.

We're throwing around comparisons with Thorn as a measure of a player's worth. Well, Thorn pushes effectively in the scrum.

Having said that, in the absence of Horwill I'd pick Sharpe and Simmons. But it's a weakness in our run on side.

Funny you say that, as in the two games they started together we actually had a better scrum than when timani was playing. How can we explain that?

 

[fatprop]

Timani and Simmons have an opportunity to make or break their test careers over the next few months, it will be interesting to see the outcome.

Is that Timani? Well not so far, he just hasn't shown enough, but he wasn't the worst lock that has played for Aus either; he was just average, he didn't look out of place, I just think we would all like to see him do more big plays.

I still struggle with Simmons because of the lazy shit he does, he gives just too many opportunities for a ref to ping him.

But he is the best option we have at the moment to partner Sharpe.

I just hope he learns to cut the shit out or we find someone better.

 

[Scotty]

The issue with Simmons is that he doesn't really have any big plays in him, but he does get through a lot of work (not all of it effective though). It really comes down to whether we want another runner of the ball, or a better lineout - the remainder of their play isn't that different for mine.

If we are starting with TPN, Palu, Kepu, Sharpe, then there is enough ball running ability and I would go for Simmons.

Then the discussion goes to whether Timani makes the bench. Assuming a 4/3 split, against the ABs I would be happy to have Dennis as back up lock and Hooper loosie, against the Boks I would think a Timani/Dennis bench would work better.

 

[waratahjesus]

I think deans faith in Timani was rewarded in the offload he gave, we have ball runners but we rarely have any Of them show an ability to offload and create as well.

Timani isn't there yet, I don't think anyone is arguing that he is, but as mentioned he has been in the wallaby set up for over a year so Deans has had far more time with him than several other locks being mentioned and must see an upside to him.

Out of his three tests, were talking about a Samoa game were the entire aus team got smashed and a Scotland test played in terrible conditions were again no one really stood up. It would be a hard taskmaster that wrote him off on what we have seen so far. He has a long way to go but he has a decent base to work with and time on his side.

Hopefully Neville, Pyle and co all step up over the next couple of years and we can be talking about who was unlucky to miss out rather than hoping thy make it.

 

[Braveheart81]

I've worked out why so many Waratahs are in the Wallabies team.

Robbie Deans knows that they will definitely be available for Wallaby training from Sunday 15 July.

Reds and Brumbies players can't guarantee that level of commitment to the cause.

 

[Lior]

Timani is a blight on the Wallabies forwards and Deans pursuance of him as his "project" (as someone earlier in the thread referred to him as) is simply bewildering. Quite frankly, the guy isn't up to it, and there are other options to look at such as Pyle and Douglas. Hopefully he sees the light. But this is Robbie Deans so who knows

 

[barbarian]

Timani is a blight on the Wallabies forwards

Please expand on this Lior, with a few examples from Saturday that show how he isn't 'up to it'.
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[Sully]

I think he was okay. Nothing more or less. We had problems with ruck defence. But I'm not sure if that was a job that Simmons does that Timani didn't. I don't think it was enough to move Simmons out of the run on side in anything but a dead rubber.
I think a lot of us a falling into the trap of speaking in absolutes. X was atrocious when he was slightly off. Y can't scrumage when he is a starting super rugby starter. You can still make a point with out the exaggerations.


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[Braveheart81]

I think a lot of us a falling into the trap of speaking in absolutes. X was atro

Maybe we should make player rankings binary.

You either get 1 or 0.

 

[barbarian]

The problem I have with Simmons is I have never seen him have a good game for the Wallabies. He's certainly had a few solid games where he does the hard yards, but I've never seen him do anything out of the ordinary- big hits, good runs, offloads, link play. Maybe a lineout steal but can't remember one off the top of my head.

He's had 12 (?) tests now and to be honest I was hoping for him to develop more than he has. So that's why I would advocate trying someone else for a while. I would play Pyle, but it looks like Deans would go Timani.

In short Timani played exactly the same game Simmons did for the first two games of the Welsh series. The numbers stack up about evenly- plenty of tackles, only one missed (actually that disregards the first game where Simmons missed a number of soft tackles). A couple of runs for a small metre gain.

So I think it's much of a muchness at the moment frankly.
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[Lior]

Please expand on this Lior, with a few examples from Saturday that show how he isn't 'up to it'.
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Barbarian is right that Simmons has never played extraordinary for the Wallabies that is true. However suggesting that Timani is somewhat on even grounds with him is reaching.

Timani in his super rugby career has never exactly excelled in the few games I have watched this season, he doesn't impose himself at the breakdown or in the set pieces as you would expect him to. Simmons however does. Now I would rather we had better players than them both, however Timani has had ample opportunity, and he continuously misses the mark. On the weekend you wouldn't classify his game as solid or bad, it was mediocre.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think the biggest asset Timani brings is his ability to offload. As has been previously highlighted, he made 3 offloads in the game, one of which created a line break.

When you consider that in the whole series, our forward pack made 11 offloads (4 - TPN, 3 - Timani, 3 - Palu, 1 - Sharpe), this is potentially an area that Deans sees Timani adding a lot to the side.

 

[Joe Blow]

I think the biggest asset Timani brings is his ability to offload. As has been previously highlighted, he made 3 offloads in the game, one of which created a line break.

When you consider that in the whole series, our forward pack made 11 offloads (4 - TPN, 3 - Timani, 3 - Palu, 1 - Sharpe), this is potentially an area that Deans sees Timani adding a lot to the side.

That is a little unfair. He offers a lot more than that.
After watching the test again and just following Timani I now feel he had a pretty good game. A lot of clearing out, tackling in close and his offloading was a bonus.
His previous 2 tests were against Scotland and Samoa with largely experimental sides. I think Deans will persist with he and Sharpe and we will see quick improvement.
I don't have a problem with that. He has great potential and with some work on his set piece work and some polish in other areas he may be very good for the Wallabies.

 

[Braveheart81]

I said the biggest asset, not the only asset.

I also think he had a pretty good game. I think his accuracy at the breakdown was really good. His ability to clear out the defender trying to pilfer the ball at the breakdown and remove them from the contest was excellent.

This is something that a few of our forwards don't excel at and failure to be successful with that first clean out at the ruck results in the team being penalised for holding on.