RBS 6 Nations 2013

[the plastic paddy]

wow, imagine that! Lol I guess we would be watching Ferris charge around like the warrior he is.with a very sore ankle. F#@$ing Ulster!

But lets not kid ourselves, Ferris had a dodgy knee way before the Lions. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but he injured his knee playing for Ireland before 2007 WC? He was also nominated for the 2012 ERC player of the year so I imagine he's been going pretty well since.

Whatever, let's hope he makes a speedy recovery from his ankle injury because he is world class and the game is so much better for having him around.

His knee went wrong playing for the lions and since then he has had to adopt a not contact, non impact training regime. The ankle injury is the first time I can remember since 2009 that he has been absent injured for any reason other than his knee. The amount of rugby he has missed is frigtening.

 

[JSRF10]

I see St Sam is back at 7 for the Welsh, Gatlands influence at work there I think. Gives the Scots a slight advantage in the back row.

 

[Wales Fan]

I see St Sam is back at 7 for the Welsh, Gatlands influence at work there I think. Gives the Scots a slight advantage in the back row.

I don't see that. Kelly Brown isn't a natural openside, think Sam could have a field day at the breakdown if Wales can get a stable set-piece going.

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[the plastic paddy]

I see St Sam is back at 7 for the Welsh, Gatlands influence at work there I think. Gives the Scots a slight advantage in the back row.

Hope he plays a blinder, SOB playing for the Lions worries me.

 

[JSRF10]

I don't see that. Kelly Brown isn't a natural openside, think Sam could have a field day at the breakdown if Wales can get a stable set-piece going.

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Kelly Brown is a poor openside but I was thinking along the lines of Warburton hasn't played well in a long long time and Tipuric is the best natural 7 in the northern hemisphere.

 

[Craig Riddington]

His knee went wrong playing for the lions and since then he has had to adopt a not contact, non impact training regime. The ankle injury is the first time I can remember since 2009 that he has been absent injured for any reason other than his knee. The amount of rugby he has missed is frigtening.

Well, I can help you out here. He missed a summer tour with Ireland with a broken jaw. He sustained a calf injury playing in the HCF and then subsequently missed time on international duty and he also had time out with a broken pinky. All since 2009.
He has had three major knee injuries. The first in 2007 on tour against Argentina. The second in training for the Lions and the third, for Ulster against an Italian side. He is due some luck.

 

[the plastic paddy]

Well, I can help you out here. He missed a summer tour with Ireland with a broken jaw. He sustained a calf injury playing in the HCF and then subsequently missed time on international duty and he also had time out with a broken pinky. All since 2009.
He has had three major knee injuries. The first in 2007 on tour against Argentina. The second in training for the Lions and the third, for Ulster against an Italian side. He is due some luck.

No one doubts that injury is an inevitable part of professional rugby. We are unlikely to agree or be able to prove the extent to which a calf injury could be due to an inability to effectively train because of a previous injury, however it was sustained. And essentially it is irrelevant anyway because you cannot definitively say to me that playing for the Lions did not lead to any subsequent injury that anyone of the players might have picked up which is, one of many, reasons why I do not think Irish players should be taking the risk of being on the tours in the first place. And that is before we even start with the terrible drop off in form that the Lions seems to engender in Irish players.

Ireland does not have anything like the player pool to adequately handle the demands of provincial and international rugby (the casualty rate this season shows that fairly definitively) so we sure as hell are not in a position to send our best players off to play on a tour that is, by its competitive selection process, and concentration of games in a limited time period inevitably more attritional than a three test tour of even NZ. I do not trust Gatland, Farrell, Rowntree or any of the other coaches to give a flying fuck about any of the Irish lads, McGeechan didn't and neither did Woodward.

There are a greater number of professional rugby players in the west of England than there are in the whole of Ireland so the attrition rate has nothing like the impact on English rugby that it does on Irish, Welsh or Scottish rugby. Could this be the reason why it is so popular among the English? It seems fairly convenient that the English, who are the biggest promoters of the tour, are the ones who inevitably derive the greatest benefit in terms of the weakening of their triple crown competitors relative to themselves.

Sadly I am confident that this will be the worse Lions tour ever for injuries because the game has got even faster and the players even bigger than 2009, the only silver lining is that there will be considerably fewer Irish lads involved and hopefully none from Munster.

 

[Wales Fan]

Kelly Brown is a poor openside but I was thinking along the lines of Warburton hasn't played well in a long long time and Tipuric is the best natural 7 in the northern hemisphere.

Fair comments, and agree with your Tipuric comment. He's a wonderful link player between forwards and backs with a superb skill set.
Think his perceived lack of physicality has counted against him this time. The big Fijian fella playing 8 for Italy broke 3 Tipuric tackles early on in the last game.


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[KevinO]

Sadly I am confident that this will be the worse Lions tour ever for injuries because the game has got even faster and the players even bigger than 2009, the only silver lining is that there will be considerably fewer Irish lads involved and hopefully none from Munster.

I understand your worry with injuries, but as a Munster and Irish fan living in Melbourne I am hoping for a couple of the boys to get selected. After all I have spent the money on tickets and who knows the next time I am going to get a chance to watch some of the Irish boys live will be.

 

[JSRF10]

Flakey Freddie is at 10 for the French. Why do I have a feeling he will play a blinder against us?
Fast start is crucial for Ireland if we can get a few early ones the French might throw in the towel, they usually aren't too fussed about doing that once the championship is gone.

 

[KevinO]

Strange feeling, the first time in a long time that I have really no interest in watching Ireland v France. Normally this is one of the must watches on the Rugby calendar each year but with both teams playing there worst rugby for a long time I think I will record the game and watch it Sunday afternoon.

 

[JSRF10]

Strange feeling, the first time in a long time that I have really no interest in watching Ireland v France. Normally this is one of the must watches on the Rugby calendar each year but with both teams playing there worst rugby for a long time I think I will record the game and watch it Sunday afternoon.

I've had the same feeling about every Irish game since the 60-0 massacre in NZ. The team are going through the motions until a new coach comes in, at the very least for the next november tests/6 nations we'll get a dead cat bounce which comes with a new coach.

 

[KevinO]

I've had the same feeling about every Irish game since the 60-0 massacre in NZ. The team are going through the motions until a new coach comes in, at the very least for the next November tests/6 nations we'll get a dead cat bounce which comes with a new coach.

Was really disappointed with that game as well, but when you have a good draw in the 6 nations and your provinces have performed reasonably well with a lot of players out early in the season. I don't think I am wrong in saying we were not far off being 3 wins and 0 loses in this 6 nations. The real killer for me has been the loss of POC, missing that leadership in the forwards and around the breakdown. The amount of players we are missing is incredible.

Hopefully 2012/13 see's a new coach (Southern Hemisphere preferred) who can gain back some of the confidence lost in Irish rugby.

 

[Craig Riddington]

No one doubts that injury is an inevitable part of professional rugby. We are unlikely to agree or be able to prove the extent to which a calf injury could be due to an inability to effectively train because of a previous injury, however it was sustained. And essentially it is irrelevant anyway because you cannot definitively say to me that playing for the Lions did not lead to any subsequent injury that anyone of the players might have picked up which is, one of many, reasons why I do not think Irish players should be taking the risk of being on the tours in the first place. And that is before we even start with the terrible drop off in form that the Lions seems to engender in Irish players.

Ireland does not have anything like the player pool to adequately handle the demands of provincial and international rugby (the casualty rate this season shows that fairly definitively) so we sure as hell are not in a position to send our best players off to play on a tour that is, by its competitive selection process, and concentration of games in a limited time period inevitably more attritional than a three test tour of even NZ. I do not trust Gatland, Farrell, Rowntree or any of the other coaches to give a flying fuck about any of the Irish lads, McGeechan didn't and neither did Woodward.

There are a greater number of professional rugby players in the west of England than there are in the whole of Ireland so the attrition rate has nothing like the impact on English rugby that it does on Irish, Welsh or Scottish rugby. Could this be the reason why it is so popular among the English? It seems fairly convenient that the English, who are the biggest promoters of the tour, are the ones who inevitably derive the greatest benefit in terms of the weakening of their triple crown competitors relative to themselves.

Sadly I am confident that this will be the worse Lions tour ever for injuries because the game has got even faster and the players even bigger than 2009, the only silver lining is that there will be considerably fewer Irish lads involved and hopefully none from Munster.

"The knee bone's connected to the cheek bone, the cheek bone's connected to the pinky, the pinky's connected to the calf muscle, the calf muscle's connected to the ankle, the ankle's connected to the knee bone, the knee bone's connected to the Lions tour..." Yes, I'm starting to see the logic of your argument. You are absolutely right, I can't prove that Ferris' calf injury wasn't ultimately a result of being injured whilst training for the Lions. Just as you can't prove to me that his second knee injury wasn't a direct result of the first injury that he did on duty for Ireland. Just as you can't prove to me that if he hadn't gone on the Lions tour his knee wouldn't have popped out playing against Canada or the USA or even, in pre-season training for Ulster. But, as you so rightly say, if you play professional rugby, injuries are inevitable. And lets face it, injuries form the very foundation upon which Kidney's succession plan depends.

So you think England are the greatest benefiters from the tour? I wish, but well, once again the facts don't back this up. The last time England played Ireland post-Lions tour, Ireland won. Not only did Ireland win at Twickenham (which doesn't happen very often) but Ireland fielded 10 of the twelve players that toured with the Lions. The two that were injured were Kearney and Fitzgerald. Kearney injured playing for his province and Fitzgerald injured playing for Ireland against Australia. And post the 2005 tour, Ireland won the triple crown. Again beating England, and at Twickenham - which as we know, just doesn't happen very often...well alright, only after a Lions tour. So based on the form of recent years, you can look forward to France winning the Grand Slam next year and Ireland at least beating England at Twickenham, if not taking out the Triple Crown too. That is a big assumption but I am trying to remain positive for you and you do seem to like assumptions.


Actually, on second thoughts, you are starting to win me over. Lets start a petition to get Ireland out of the Lions tour. Straight away there's and extra 8.3% share of the pot straight into RFU coffer's. Ireland can take all their Old Guard to Canada and the USA instead so once again, Kidney will fail to blood some youngsters. And without those extra dollars in their pocket, where will the Old Guard start looking to top-up their retirement funds...France...Japan? It's starting to sound better all the time. Keep it up.

 

[Italophile]

Sergio Parisse's suspension reduced on appeal. He can start against England. Not, I fear, that it will make a lot of difference to the result. Bizarrely, the LNR appeal panel changed the charge - from abusing the ref to (paraphrasing) not fulfilling the duties of a captain - before reducing the suspension.

 

[JSRF10]

Sergio Parisse's suspension reduced on appeal. He can start against England. Not, I fear, that it will make a lot of difference to the result. Bizarrely, the LNR appeal panel changed the charge - from abusing the ref to (paraphrasing) not fulfilling the duties of a captain - before reducing the suspension.

Unfortunately I don't think it'll help Itlay, they usually cop a beating at Twickers and I can't see this changing this year.

 

[Italophile]

Nor can I, unfortunately. Just hope that Brunel has the courage to start Orquera. A missed tackle or ten waiting to happen, but he plays around the gain line and can create opportunities. Start Kris Burton and you might as well not have a 10.

 

[the plastic paddy]

"The knee bone's connected to the cheek bone, the cheek bone's connected to the pinky, the pinky's connected to the calf muscle, the calf muscle's connected to the ankle, the ankle's connected to the knee bone, the knee bone's connected to the Lions tour." Yes, I'm starting to see the logic of your argument. You are absolutely right, I can't prove that Ferris' calf injury wasn't ultimately a result of being injured whilst training for the Lions. Just as you can't prove to me that his second knee injury wasn't a direct result of the first injury that he did on duty for Ireland. Just as you can't prove to me that if he hadn't gone on the Lions tour his knee wouldn't have popped out playing against Canada or the USA or even, in pre-season training for Ulster. But, as you so rightly say, if you play professional rugby, injuries are inevitable. And lets face it, injuries form the very foundation upon which Kidney's succession plan depends.

So you think England are the greatest benefiters from the tour? I wish, but well, once again the facts don't back this up. The last time England played Ireland post-Lions tour, Ireland won. Not only did Ireland win at Twickenham (which doesn't happen very often) but Ireland fielded 10 of the twelve players that toured with the Lions. The two that were injured were Kearney and Fitzgerald. Kearney injured playing for his province and Fitzgerald injured playing for Ireland against Australia. And post the 2005 tour, Ireland won the triple crown. Again beating England, and at Twickenham - which as we know, just doesn't happen very often.well alright, only after a Lions tour. So based on the form of recent years, you can look forward to France winning the Grand Slam next year and Ireland at least beating England at Twickenham, if not taking out the Triple Crown too. That is a big assumption but I am trying to remain positive for you and you do seem to like assumptions.


Actually, on second thoughts, you are starting to win me over. Lets start a petition to get Ireland out of the Lions tour. Straight away there's and extra 8.3% share of the pot straight into RFU coffer's. Ireland can take all their Old Guard to Canada and the USA instead so once again, Kidney will fail to blood some youngsters. And without those extra dollars in their pocket, where will the Old Guard start looking to top-up their retirement funds.France.Japan? It's starting to sound better all the time. Keep it up.

Kidney won't be in charge of the A team tour to Canada and the US. And the point is it will be an Irish tour anyway so any injuries picked up will be an acceptable aspect of the professional rugby I support.

You cite the injuries to Fitzgerald and Kearney and suggest that I am being presumptuous in my thinking but you cannot prove to me that the intensity of the Lions tour did not lead to the catastrophic injuries that those players suffered therefore I would rather not see Irish players taking the risk. When you factor in the shoulder injury that saw BOD miss most of last season which has been suggested to have started in SA in 2009 and the recurrence of the back injury to POC which again has been suggested to have been precipitated by the Lions tour then you can see why I don't think the players should be risked.

But whether those injuries were caused by the lions or not is IMMATERIAL. What happened in 2009 is irrelevant because we are in 2013. We have had years of brutal injury in Irish rugby, ask an Ulster fan how much it has fucked up their season. Ask a Leinster fan how injury has fucked up their season. I will tell you that Munster were fucked by injury last year and we have played all year without probably our greatest ever player, hopefully he will be back for the Stoop. Look at the farce that is the Irish team's preparations for this saturdays game against France. In 2013, Ireland does not have the player pool to justify Irish involvement with the Lions, and hopefully very few will be involved.

As for the 'facts' about Ireland winning in Twickers in 2006 and 2010, with the greatest respect those were two of the worst England teams seen since the 1980s. And your suggestion that some of the old guard might start looking elsewhere is unlikely given the tax break they receive for finishing their careers playing in Ireland; mores the pity given the situation we find ourselves in with ROG place blocking at Munster and Strings going out on loan to Bath but that is a whole different issue about a pro game being run by amateurs in blazers etc.

But that is irrelevant to my very simple argument that we do not, in 2013, have the players in Ireland to justify involvement in an extra tier of rugby that is, by its very nature, more physically demanding than a three test national tour to even NZ. I am sorry for the Irish lads in the southern Hemisphere but I would like to see a much more formally organised series of tours by NH teams to the SH which would see Ireland playing in Aus, Sa and NZ every four to five years anyway.

I really don't understand why you appear so hostile to this suggestion that Ireland should not be involved with the Lions, I suspect part of the problem is the whole debate that is raging about British identity at the moment and the deeply rooted insecurity about England as the dominant nation within Britain but I am sure the Lions will survive without Irish involvement.

 

[the plastic paddy]

I understand your worry with injuries, but as a Munster and Irish fan living in Melbourne I am hoping for a couple of the boys to get selected. After all I have spent the money on tickets and who knows the next time I am going to get a chance to watch some of the Irish boys live will be.

I think ending Irish involvement in Lions tours would make it more likely that you would see more Irish lads playing more regularly for Ireland in the southern hemisphere. Say Ireland were not to be involved in NZ 2017, and the British decide to keep their tour going, Ireland could use that summer to go and play a series in Aus, or maybe a one off test after a development tour against Georgia, Russia etc, or maybe a mini tournament involving Ireland, Aus, SA & Argentina, the possibilities are endless. There wouldn't be the 'dirt track' games, although the precedent of 2009 is that the hosts put up the rugby equivalent of Sonny Bill William's pugilistic opponents to try and undermine the Lions anyway so that would not be any great loss.

 

[JSRF10]

One of Ireland big regrets after winning the slam in 09 has to be that they couldn't tour NZ or South Africa with a fully fit squad on a roll straight after. However lets be fair so long as the IRFU are making a lot of cash out of the Lions Irish players will be playing.
As much as I enjoy supporting the Lions it doesn't mean the same to be as Ireland or Leinster. In SA in 2009 for example I wasn't too down as the majority of the Irish guys did themselves proud.