Lions vs Reds Rd 6 2014

[mst]

Or, you could admit the ref was absolutely horrible and cost the Reds the game. Is that so hard?

Wonder what you would be saying if that happened to the Brumbies..

Same thing I always do - just like against the Tah's with the 2 cards, the players were warned so we suffer the ramifications. The ref didn't make them do it, and it was not like it was surprise.

We have seen many games over time that have changed due to refereeing. I recall one specific one a few seasons ago Brumbies V Tah's with I think Walshy as the ref were both team were kicking to play in the others half because the Walshy had made the breakdown virtually impossible to contest without conceding penalties. Both team adapted.

Just like the last game where the Blues sucked it up and dealt with his shit!

So do the Reds have special needs where they do not understand simple warnings or when things wont go as they want them they cannot adapt their play?

Simple question to you is if the Reds could march so many points in the first half, why did they change the game plan and put themselves in that position to give away defensive penalties in the 2nd half? Surely if they had continued the plan from the 1st half there was least another 10 to 20 points available and they would have been camped in attack in the lions red zone. But they kicked the ball away and were at at the wrong end of the field. The ref did not do the kicking for them nor did he keep giving the position and ball away.

 

[Braveheart81]

@gel - the ruling on the non-try by Shipperley was that the first action was the Lions hand in the ruck to rip the ball out of Horwill's hands. The second action was Horwill knocking the ball on while trying to stop it rolling towards the Lions try line.

The Lions hand was a penalty offence but due to the knock on it couldn't be play on advantage and a Reds try.

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[Ash]

So do the Reds have special needs where they do not understand simple warnings or when things wont go as they want them they cannot adapt their play?

Simple question to you is if the Reds could march so many points in the first half, why did they change the game plan and put themselves in that position to give away defensive penalties in the 2nd half? Surely if they had continued the plan from the 1st half there was least another 10 to 20 points available and they would have been camped in attack in the lions red zone. But they kicked the ball away and were at at the wrong end of the field. The ref did not do the kicking for them nor did he keep giving the position and ball away.

No, the Reds needed the ref to ref both teams, not just them. It's not a complex thing, you'd think that you could grasp that simple point.

Sure, it wasn't the right tactics, but they weren't game losing tactics to the Lions either. Unless the ref did what he did. Which is gift the Lions free territory and position time after time.

When Nick Mallet writes an article that only one team was reffed, and not exactly correctly at that, and that the one team who suffered was an Australian team playing an SA team, you pay notice. The ref should not be an issue like that. The fact that SA supporters have acknowledged the howlers done by the ref should give you a hint too.

Obviously you struggle to understand these points. I don't think I can spell it out any clearer to you.

Sure, the Reds didn't execute well in the second half and made mistakes. But when you whistled of the park, things turn to shit very quickly. I have played games like that, you end up bewildered by the ref and concentrate more on the ref than the game.

Mate, if you think that the ref did not cost the Reds the game, then I have a bridge to sell you in Sydney, barely used. The fact is that refereeing performances that bad just shouldn't happen in pro rugby.

 

[mst]

Yeah that passage of play was pretty ordinary, as soon as the pick & go went I put my head in my hands. We probably could have got through them out wide.

The reffing wouldn't be a secondary discussion though - it really was that bad that it would still be dominating things.

@sandpitfan - yeah, as soon as I saw him pick it up my reaction was similar (but more from a happy Brumbies fan point of view) especially with the gap out to the left, but I was also stunned and annoyed (from a Wallabies perspective) the was Genia just stood and watched. That to me says that this team needs to have a good hard look at this game and face reality or these results will continue.

The secondary discussion about the refereeing standard would be after we all were impressed how the Reds overcame such crap refereeing and showed some of what they had in 2011.

Don't misunderstand me, I think Berry and a few others should go, but at the end of the day good teams adapt to the conditions and the referee.

 

[Sandpit Fan]

We have seen many games over time that have changed due to refereeing. I recall one specific one a few seasons ago Brumbies V Tah's with I think Walshy as the ref were both team were kicking to play in the others half because the Walshy had made the breakdown virtually impossible to contest without conceding penalties. Both team adapted.

Indeed they did. I don't see the relevance to this game, because Walsh applied the rulings to both teams, not just one of them.

 

[gel]

@gel - the ruling on the non-try by Shipperley was that the first action was the Lions hand in the ruck to rip the ball out of Horwill's hands. The second action was Horwill knocking the ball on while trying to stop it rolling towards the Lions try line.

The Lions hand was a penalty offence but due to the knock on it couldn't be play on advantage and a Reds try.

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I see, it was because the tackle had been effected (I thought it was still a tackle and not yet a ruck).

Fair enough.

 

[mst]

No, the Reds needed the ref to ref both teams, not just them. It's not a complex thing, you'd think that you could grasp that simple point.

Sure, it wasn't the right tactics, but they weren't game losing tactics to the Lions either. Unless the ref did what he did. Which is gift the Lions free territory and position time after time.

When Nick Mallet writes an article that only one team was reffed, and not exactly correctly at that, and that the one team who suffered was an Australian team playing an SA team, you pay notice. The ref should not be an issue like that. The fact that SA supporters have acknowledged the howlers done by the ref should give you a hint too.

Obviously you struggle to understand these points. I don't think I can spell it out any clearer to you.

Sure, the Reds didn't execute well in the second half and made mistakes. But when you whistled of the park, things turn to shit very quickly. I have played games like that, you end up bewildered by the ref and concentrate more on the ref than the game.

Mate, if you think that the ref did not cost the Reds the game, then I have a bridge to sell you in Sydney, barely used. The fact is that refereeing performances that bad just shouldn't happen in pro rugby.

@ Ash - you yourself provide half the evidence to my point - the Reds should have done better.

We can all have an opinion and roll out stats or an article or argue over interpretation which we will, but you have to ask when you stick your knife in the toaster and get zapped how many times more do you do it?

They are the most penalised team in the comp so its not surprising all of the penalties, and its always going to be down hill it push the ref too far, he will look harder and he did - amateur yes, predictable yes. You live by the sword die by the sword!

So what happens next game when there is a high penalty count against you and it potentially cost you a game?

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Don't misunderstand me, I think Berry and a few others should go, but at the end of the day good teams adapt to the conditions and the referee.

Fair enough, and generally true, but I think in this case there was no adapting possible that would have saved us in the end. Didn't matter what we did, it was wrong.

On the general run of penalties for which he issued the team warning it's a fair comment - we all know the Reds are giving away too many, much like the Brumbies used to (and still do.. )

 

[tranquility]

Is there a link to RG's post-game interview?

 

[biggsy]

@ Ash - you yourself provide half the evidence to my point - the Reds should have done better.

We can all have an opinion and roll out stats or an article or argue over interpretation which we will, but you have to ask when you stick your knife in the toaster and get zapped how many times more do you do it?

They are the most penalised team in the comp so its not surprising all of the penalties, and its always going to be down hill it push the ref too far, he will look harder and he did - amateur yes, predictable yes. You live by the sword die by the sword!

So what happens next game when there is a high penalty count against you and it potentially cost you a game?

Have you watched this game at all or any other reds game this season. The tahs are the only team to have beaten the reds convincingly so far.


The reds supporters on this forum are well were of the discipline issue, and joked about it earlier in this thread.
This particular game was shocking and Roll on effect from last week when he reffed the lions win over the blues.

 

[Ash]

@ Ash - you yourself provide half the evidence to my point - the Reds should have done better.

We can all have an opinion and roll out stats or an article or argue over interpretation which we will, but you have to ask when you stick your knife in the toaster and get zapped how many times more do you do it?

They are the most penalised team in the comp so its not surprising all of the penalties, and its always going to be down hill it push the ref too far, he will look harder and he did - amateur yes, predictable yes. You live by the sword die by the sword!

So what happens next game when there is a high penalty count against you and it potentially cost you a game?

If the ref had a good game, I will say so. It's not hard.

When the ref gives a team warning after an offside penalty where a replay right after showed the guy wasn't offside, it's sad. When he gives a 50/50 penalty against them five minutes later 30m from the oppositions' line and issues a card, it's horrible.

So, what do you think of the ref's performance mst?

I freely admit the Reds kicked too much in the second half. Not just that, but they dropped a few balls and missed a lineout they shouldn't have. Yes, they have blame in losing the game.

But gees, if you think the ref had no impact, I don't know what to say. Really. There's having the rub of the green go against you, then there's a ref out of his depth looking to penalise you at every opportunity.

 

[Ash]

Oh, and I doubt the Reds went into that game looking to push the breakdown as a tactic.

They openly stated in press conferences before the game that they were afraid of Boshoff's boot and were going to try to be disciplined.

 

[tranquility]

I don't believe that MST is being serious. I believe that he is a large, green, forum-defacer who lives under a bridge. It is very cold and lonely under that bridge, so he attempts to prod people who walk past so that he can have some interaction. Most pundits believe it is best to ignore said defacer.

 

[Ash]

And special magical stats for those interested, Lions conceded penalties per game this year:
vs Reds: 4
vs Blues: 10
vs Sharks: 8
vs Bulls: 11
vs Stormers: 13
vs Cheetahs: 12

One of those is not like the others. Can @mst pick which one?

Here's a little hint for @mst : prior to the Reds game, the Lions were averaging 10.8 penalties per game.

 

[biggsy]

And why do these type of forum-defacer attack there targets when they are already so vulnerable. It's a horrible feeling, much like the reds would have felt.

 

[qwerty51]

That was good refereeing.

Can you believe I wrote this 15 minutes into the match.

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Can you believe I wrote this 15 minutes into the match.

To be fair, he wasn't doing badly at that stage!

 

[Scrubber2050]

Fucking cheating Saffa match officials - puts a blight on all South Africans - unfortunately - my best 2 mate are saffas and even they are totally embarrassed - any Saffa referee should be red carded for the season

 

[Braveheart81]

Can we stop with the South African bashing please?

This is one referee who had an absolute shocker. He also performed poorly the week before and will almost certainly be dropped from the referees squad this week (based on comments by Lyndon Bray during last week about changes coming).

There is no evidence of any conspiracy or match fixing or anything else except for one referee being not up to the job and ruining a game as a result.

The underlying issues would seeminingly be that of the entire referees panel in Super Rugby, most fans would only rate four or five of them as being decent referees. Whether that is fair or not, it certainly points to the fact that there is very little depth in refereeing ranks currently.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Can we lay off the "all Saffer Refs are cheats" line?

Some are bad, out of their depth, incompetetant even, but there are plenty of good'uns.

There are some rather ordinary match officials from Australia as well. Glass houses anyone?

The leap in logic from equivalent to two Victorians are dickheads, therefore all Victorians are dickheads is astounding.