Higgers to the Rebels

[Penguin]

No I don't begrudge that fact at all Braveheart. I just don't like seeing players who would clearly love to stay with the province they call home stay & fulfill their potential in that province. Of course if they really want to leave because they can't stand the place or they leave for an opportunity is all good & above board.

 

[daz]

I never said Schoolboys, but knowing that Delve wasn't going to be around forever, what steps did the Rebels take to minimize his loss?

They recruited Scott Higginbotham.

 

[Braveheart81]

No I don't begrudge that fact at all Braveheart. I just don't like seeing players who would clearly love to stay with the province they call home stay & fulfill their potential in that province. Of course if they really want to leave because they can't stand the place or they leave for an opportunity is all good & above board.

At the end of the day though, they'd love to stay, but if another employer offers them a lot more money than their current employer can, then the player is probably going to go to the new job.

This is how many employment situations work, not just in professional sport.

Everyone has a price. It would be interesting to find out what that price difference was that caused Higginbotham to leave.

 

[gel]

What exactly is the ideal goal of the other franchises? It's something I am unclear on. Is it:

a) to provide additional avenues for the "almost" and up & coming players from the traditional rugby states or

b) to develop the interest in the game in the expansion areas so that in the long term the new provinces provide the majority of their players as born and bred types?

If it is a) then I think it largely does its job and in some cases (probably quite a few actually) it is the traditional states that will suffer, largely due to the traditional states having the resources and structure to rapidly develop players on a greater and faster scale and the non traditional states HAVE to be highly competitive in order to survive their hostile market dominance of kick and giggle.

If it is b) then it will never succeed. There will always be more schoolboys from QLD and NSW whilst the AFL continues to dominate WA and VIC in the hearts of minds of the average schoolboy. Case in point... The Melbourne Storm (yeah I know it is RL, but it is a similar situation) despite being around for something like 15 years in SL, ARL and NRL STILL is predominantly NSW, NZ and QLD players.

I would love for it to be b, but realistically can only ever seeing it be a.

 

[barbarian]

Ok, fair points on not throwing teams to the wolves, but if we're going to adopt that approach then ensure the rules across all Australia teams are consistent, transparent and easy to navigate.

Currently, four of the five teams are restricted and placed in perpetual limbo by the salary cap while the other can conduct business in a way that suits them. How is this a better way of running our sport?

More importantly, what if this "share the love" approach doesn't work? What if we just have 5 mediocre teams that win the odd game here and there and finish mid of the table? While it's debatable whether the kiwis have a salary cap and their restrictions we're doing a further disservice to our sport by versuing the rest of the teams with essentially a hand behind our back.

Firstly the Rebels will in all likelihood have to adhere to the cap. And as Stu said before even if they don't it isn't like they have millions more to splash out. Their player budget will be more or less the same.

Look if all five teams become mediocre all of a sudden then certainly the system should be tailored to suit. However I don't believe the arguments that this will automatically happen.

As the Brumbies and Reds have shown you don't need to splash around big dollars to build a side capable of playing finals footy and ultimately winning.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

The goal is surely to make teams that are as competitive as every other Australian team in the long run and to increase the number of quality rugby players in Australia.

There is also the fact that Australia had to come to the party with more teams to allow for the expansion of Super Rugby into the conference system we currently have.

The goal is certainly not b) although clearly there is the aim that grassroots rugby will grow in these markets because of having a professional team there. No one would expect that this increase in grassroots rugby in Perth and Melbourne are going to lead to them providing the bulk of the players for those teams.

 

[Bullrush]

I'd be very interested to see how that works and what the cap actually is. Unless it was almost unlimited, I'm not sure how they could have fit the likes of the Franks brothers, Brad Thorn, Sam Whitelock, McCaw, Read, Ellis, Carter, $BW, Guildford and Dagg - all established All Blacks last year - under the 'cap'.

I'm not 100% sure of how it works but here goes my guess....

Players are contracted to provinces and the NZRFU. All the provinces are allocated to a Super Rugby catchment area eg. Northland, Nth Harbour, Auckland = The Blues. Counties Manakau, Bay of Plenty = The Chiefs etc.

The provinces have a salary cap of around $2million. So if Auckland wanted Dan Carter to play for them, he would have to play for someone like Nth Harbour or Auckland in the ITM Cup and fit into their salary cap.

After the ITM Cup, the Super Rugby franchises then 'protect' 30-odd players from their allocated provinces in their squad for the up-coming Super Rugby season. Any players missing out can then get picked up by any other Super Rugby franchise in NZ.

I would be surprised if a lot of those guys in Canterbury on massive contracts. Their contract, I believe, is actually with the NZRFU and a lot of players go there for more than just the money.

1. The rugby environment. The set-up in Canterbury (credited to Wayne Smith mostly) is the best in NZ (ouch) especially for young up-and-comers.
2. Profile. Playing in a winning team raises a players profile and is great for players trying to keep stepping up - the aim obviously to become an AB. Cos that's where the big dollars are.

Not only do ABs get paid pretty good money but a players asking value can go up considerably world-wide if they can have say they pulled on the black jersey on their CV.

There have been a couple of pretty 'fishy' deals done that I alluded to earlier where players have gone to smaller provinces or unions to play with no real intention os actually playing for them but simply to get into the Crusaders catchment area.

There's probably a couple of holes in there but at the end of the day, the Crusaders simply cannot go and offer $$ to get players into the team - it just doesn't work like that.

 

[Ignoto]

Firstly the Rebels will in all likelihood have to adhere to the cap. And as Stu said before even if they don't it isn't like they have millions more to splash out. Their player budget will be more or less the same.

Eventually that will be the case, but what timeframe is that acceptable? 2,5,10 years?

As the Brumbies and Reds have shown you don't need to splash around big dollars to build a side capable of playing finals footy and ultimately winning.

You don't, but you need to spend the cash to keep them. Otherwise it's a massive cycle of finding talent, developing them and playing finals rugby.

 

[daz]

but you need to spend the cash to keep them. Otherwise it's a massive cycle of finding talent, developing them and playing finals rugby.

Pretty sure that is why there is a market for coaches, talent scouts and player agents and they all make a living year after year. Professional sports is like a Bangkok bar; the talent turns over 24/7.

 

[Troy]

Firstly the Rebels will in all likelihood have to adhere to the cap. And as Stu said before even if they don't it isn't like they have millions more to splash out. Their player budget will be more or less the same.
.

I asked them on twitter:

@theruckshow @Rebel_Army With the @MelbourneRebels being privately owned, do you have to adhere to the Salary Cap like the other 4 AU teams?

Response:
Technically no, not under the current EBA. In reality, yes, because as soon as a new EBA comes in we'll be subject.

As the Brumbies and Reds have shown you don't need to splash around big dollars to build a side capable of playing finals footy and ultimately winning.
.

That's right - case in point are the Brumbies 2011!

What you do need is a crack hot coach! Wouldn't the Rebels be more suited to chasing a Mallet or Chieka! Winning will draw crowds and build the game, ala Reds with Link!

 

[Braveheart81]

I agree with Bullrush.

I think if the actual figures came out about how much every All Black was getting paid, a few forum posters and Australian rugby stars would be a bit sheepish.

I think plenty of those All Blacks are probably earning significantly less than they could be to play for the Crusaders or whoever than they could be earning if they went to the highest bidder.

 

[emuarse]

I'm disappointed to see Higgers go but you are often
going to loose players whether it is determined by a salary cap

Sorry to nit pick but I can't believe the number of people who can't understand the difference between the words 'lose' and 'loose'.
So often the word 'loose' (which means, not tight) is used by mistake, far too many times to be a typo.
'Lose' means to depart with something you had.
So I've had my bitch - Higgers is definitely loose with his ethics, joining the southern horde - I'll bet he doesnt play as well next year.
He will lose his enthusiasm and become too loose a forward.

 

[Braveheart81]

He already plays too loose.

Haven't you read a Bob Dwyer column?

 

[fatprop]

Sorry to nit pick but I can't believe the number of people who can't understand the difference between the words 'lose' and 'loose'.
So often the word 'loose' (which means, not tight) is used by mistake, far too many times to be a typo.
'Lose' means to depart with something you had.
So I've had my bitch - Higgers is definitely loose with his ethics, joining the southern horde - I'll bet he doesnt play as well next year.
He will lose his enthusiasm and become too loose a forward.

clearly he will be overrated from about October

 

[Linebacker_41]

At the end of the day though, they'd love to stay, but if another employer offers them a lot more money than their current employer can, then the player is probably going to go to the new job.

This is how many employment situations work, not just in professional sport.

Everyone has a price. It would be interesting to find out what that price difference was that caused Higginbotham to leave.

Agree wholeheartedly Breaveheart.

Unfortunately the media spin from Melbourne will not be "we paid him more money" but we have got the "we are building a great team".

Unless someone secretly records a private conversation with Higgers stating that he only left for the cash then we will never know.

I also agree that we all make decisions for our careers which is largely influenced by money, just this afternoon I had a friend tell me she was leaving for another company and yes money was one of the reasons.

 

[Sully]

Guys you need to stop, take a breath and lat it go. Us queenslanders have just lost a key player and we are allowed to have a little rant. don't bite back and for the Qld boys calm down there's nothing we can do. Parts of this conversation are below us.


Sent using Tapatalk on a very old phone

 

[en_force_er]

Unfortunately the media spin from Melbourne will not be "we paid him more money" but we have got the "we are building a great team".

I think behind closed doors the Rebels staff would tell you, and honestly believe, that both are true.

On a side note, you'd think with the way people are talking here Higgers chose between living off baked beans and living in a mansion. He chose financial between a good living and a great living.

 

[kronic]

I think behind closed doors the Rebels staff would tell you, and honestly believe, that both are true.

On a side note, you'd think with the way people are talking here Higgers chose between living off baked beans and living in a mansion. He chose financial between a good living and a great living.

It's the same old case... if someone offered you a job, with the same role but higher pay, you'd take it.

 

[Boomer]

What exactly is the ideal goal of the other franchises? It's something I am unclear on. Is it:

a) to provide additional avenues for the "almost" and up & coming players from the traditional rugby states or

b) to develop the interest in the game in the expansion areas so that in the long term the new provinces provide the majority of their players as born and bred types?

If it is a) then I think it largely does its job and in some cases (probably quite a few actually) it is the traditional states that will suffer, largely due to the traditional states having the resources and structure to rapidly develop players on a greater and faster scale and the non traditional states HAVE to be highly competitive in order to survive their hostile market dominance of kick and giggle.

If it is b) then it will never succeed. There will always be more schoolboys from QLD and NSW whilst the AFL continues to dominate WA and VIC in the hearts of minds of the average schoolboy. Case in point... The Melbourne Storm (yeah I know it is RL, but it is a similar situation) despite being around for something like 15 years in SL, ARL and NRL STILL is predominantly NSW, NZ and QLD players.

I would love for it to be b, but realistically can only ever seeing it be a.

Clearly the goal of "the other franchises" is to become bonus point walkovers for the glory and betterment of NSW and Qld.

 

[Dumbledore]

I agree with Bullrush.

I think if the actual figures came out about how much every All Black was getting paid, a few forum posters and Australian rugby stars would be a bit sheepish.

I think plenty of those All Blacks are probably earning significantly less than they could be to play for the Crusaders or whoever than they could be earning if they went to the highest bidder.

Exactly. And being from Melbourne, I'm just going to point out the AFL as well. An absolute stack of the great Geelong team of the last five years or signed contracts that paid them way below their market value because they felt they were part of a team that was going to win premierships. The Rebels have done the right thing by themselves by chasing a star who is heading into the peak years of his career, and Higgers decided that 'x' more dollars was more important than being part of a Queensland team that should be playing finals for a few years to come. That's all there is to it really.