Higgers to the Rebels

[I like to watch]

Where we are trying to grow rugby in non-traditional rugby markets, we absolutely have to have an artificial mechanism to level the playing field.

I suggest that to get a level playing field you boost the weaker teams. Dragging down the more successful teams to the level of the weaker teams is not ideal.

 

[I like to watch]

I am getting sick of this attitude that the Rebels aren't developing players. The inaugural squad assembled less than 20 months ago and guys like Pyle and Jones have already come through. It is not as though the Reds or Brumbies didnt have established programs that allowed them to nurture the talent they brought through. How many of those guys who had breakout years had been at the clubs less than two years?

What about Cadryn Neville? No way the Tahs would have signed him in a million years, let alone give him a run.

 

[RedsHappy]

Would it be a fairer system if the ARU said, fine, we'll do away with the salary cap but to make up for the fact that it is far easier for NSW and Qld to attract players, we'll give an extra million dollars a season to the Force and the Rebels and an extra half million to the Brumbies so they can be competitive in attracting players.

Bh81, that's constructive input, something like the above (which should not go on forever) would be far fairer and more sensible than the current scheme (which is effectively designed around and will perpetuate Aus S15's rugby's weaknesses, rather than its strengths).

 

[kronic]

I am getting sick of this attitude that the Rebels aren't developing players. The inaugural squad assembled less than 20 months ago and guys like Pyle and Jones have already come through. It is not as though the Reds or Brumbies didnt have established programs that allowed them to nurture the talent they brought through. How many of those guys who had breakout years had been at the clubs less than two years?

That and VIC has been producing junior players currently with several teams, not our own.

 

[Ignoto]

I am getting sick of this attitude that the Rebels aren't developing players.

So why didn't you attempt to recruit the upcoming younger players? Essentially, by recruiting a ready made player to fill the boots of Delve. The Rebels staff knew Delve wasn't going to be around forever, did they originally look to see a 18/19 year old guy they could sign who could come in?

The Force is a good example, they've got a great set of at least 4 back rowers, yet they brought in Cottrell this year who I've thought has been doing a good job for them. He'll be able to learn the ropes from some great back-rowers.

 

[barbarian]

So why didn't you attempt to recruit the upcoming younger players? Essentially, by recruiting a ready made player to fill the boots of Delve. The Rebels staff knew Delve wasn't going to be around forever, did they originally look to see a 18/19 year old guy they could sign who could come in?

What a load of absolute rubbish.

So should the Reds have recruited Radike Samo last season? Surely there was a young guy running around they could have developed. The Reds should have known they would have injuries, and should have had a few young guys ready to step up. What about Adam Wallace-Harrison? Mike Harris? Daniel Braid?

This is just a classic case of fans of team X crying foul because one of their players chose to leave for another club. I know it hurts guys, but you know what they say "if you love someone, let them go..."
.

 

[HG]

Sad to see him go, but should go well with the Rebels. With 3 high profile players there now and maybe a new Wallaby named in a few weeks in Pyle should help attract younger talent form QLD, NSW, and ACT.
Good luck to the big fella!!!!!

 

[Braveheart81]

Bh81, that's constructive input, something like the above (which should not go on forever) would be far fairer and more sensible than the current scheme (which is effectively designed around and will perpetuate Aus S15's rugby's weaknesses, rather than its strengths).

There is only a finite pot of money that the ARU has to hand out though.

If this situation was created and the Tahs and Reds were told that they would get $1.25m less from the ARU per year to pay players but were entitled to spend however much they want overall, they would be outraged and there is no way either team would be able to afford to spend a figure higher than the current salary cap.

If you took away $1.25m from the Reds and told them they could spend what they wanted, it's not like they'd be able to spend $5m on a team and keep all their stars.

 

[Jiggles]

Got to say I am really disappointed about all this. I have no hard feelings towards Higginbotham, He is an excellent 6, the best in Australia by some way (Despite what Bob Dwyer and a couple of Mexicans say), and he has given me much pleasure as a Reds and Australian fan. I am pretty annoyed at the ARU and this cap nonsense. Higginbotham has said he wants to stay at the Reds and it is the ARU and their bullshit politics that is stopping this. The ARU were so quick to piggyback off the Reds last year, and their success, yet they have been doing nothing to try and keep the young core of a successful team together, which could be anything. What benefit to Australian rugby is it having 5 teams sitting between 5th and 14th every year in super rugby?

In 2005 when the Reds got gutted by the force, it was fair enough in my opinion. The QRU was a shambles and they weren’t treating top players with the respect they deserved. The QRU are now doing the right night, and Queensland is a place where players want to play; yet it’s the ARU and their amateur management style which is stuffing this up.

 

[Ignoto]

So should the Reds have recruited Radike Samo last season? Surely there was a young guy running around they could have developed. The Reds should have known they would have injuries, and should have had a few young guys ready to step up. What about Adam Wallace-Harrison? Mike Harris? Daniel Braid?

Different scenarios, from memory no-one had offered Samo or any of those (other than Daniel Braid(?)) a contract. We're talking about spending time and money that goes in developing a player not filling in a injury void.

It's always been said that having this fifth team will broaden our players and that players who wouldn't have been able to play are now given a go. The Rebels have known about playing in the super competition since the end of 2009. So they've had time too look into the youth (that is, Schoolboys) around Australia and see who should be brought in. However, they persisted with the likes of Huxley, Mortlock, Frier etc who while possessing the "experience factor" are all largely past their prime (sure it was great to see Morty get that intercept last week, but it was painfully obvious how slow he is now).

I'm unfamiliar with the Melbourne youth academy, but since it's inception how is it progressing?

 

[RedsHappy]

That actually does happen to some extent in South Africa. Except there are 3 wealthy unions - Stormers, Sharks and Bulls, and two not so wealthy unions - Cheetahs and Lions. All the best players inevitably end up at the wealthier teams. In the last few years the Lions have lost Bryan Habana, Jaque Fourie, Willem Alberts, Louis Ludik, Joe van Niekerk etc. to the wealthier unions. And the Cheetahs - I won't even start on the players their union has lost because the list could be an A4 page long!

There is no salary cap in South Africa and the salary bills at the Cheetahs and Lions would in all probability be less than half of those at the Stormers/Bulls/Sharks.

Huge points above, thanks Bb. Note all Aus posters extolling the seemingly hallowed benefits of our salary cap: RSA rugby now has 2-3 consistently strong top S15 teams who have won multiple and many S1x titles. Sorry there's 2 weaker clubs but the harsh fact of capitalist life is that an emergent hierarchy of success over less success inevitably happens over time due to combinations of money and talent. But the obvious derived benefit is strength in depth over time, vs weakness in depth. I am not arguing that salary freedom is the reason the RSA S15 team situation is as it is, but it manifestly helps that top teams can hold their best players and further create virtuous, quality-consolidating circles whereby their relative commercial success can permit them to bid to gain the best up and coming players from all over RSA, as well and combine these players with their existing top players. So the strong will get stronger this way, but that is exactly what's required to consistently compete with other top RSA teams and other non-RSA top teams. The right goal of the best managed teams is consistency of victories, not a once every decade (at best) affair. Then, having consolidated 2-3 consistently top teams, media and fan interest consolidates too, sponsorship and media $s grow, and the whole code thus gets healthier over time.

But sadly many posters here are comforted by the unproven notion that by a quasi unionist-socialist model of central code player cost control, in 10 long years time we might have 5 franchises that are all about at each other's standards of achievement (though no one quite knows what that levelled-out standard will be).

 

[RugbyReg]

Its sad to see him go. I'd love to see him stay in QLD, but we move on. Its what the 5th team is all about. Providing opportunities. So Higgers goes South, and someone up here gets the chance to step up. Be it Shatz, Quirk, Browning - who knows. We may discover another Scott Fardy running around. Does Colby want to come home and play with his brothers? Has AJ Gilbert matured into a professional player? Is McDuling a legitimate 6 option?

I'd suggest Link will look within, that's the way he's approached it most of the time. This will be a good opportunity for someone and that's what development is all about.

 

[Jiggles]

I also hope that Damien Hill can get the most out of Higgers and take him to that next level. If he stalls at the Rebels I will be very upset.

 

[FiveStarStu]

I'll continue to get shirty with this whole premise until I see the Rebels spending time and money developing new and upcoming players (it worked for the Reds in 2010/2011 and the Brumbies in 2012).

Please.

Pyle, Jones, Phipps are three players who the Rebels have developed. The Rebel Rising squad, the majority of which are Victorian, have had an absolute tonne of money invested into them by the Rebels.

I understand you're upset, but don't insult a club that is throwing everything into making itself a success in the long term.

 

[RugbyReg]

I liked this from a Jimmy Tucker article. Sums it up well:

IT WAS comedian Jerry Seinfeld who cut to the core ofa sports fan's loyalty by describing it thus: "Cheering and yelling for your clothes to beat the clothes from another team."

"Love a guy in your shirt ...hate him in a different one," was the dry Seinfeld line.

 

[Jiggles]

Its sad to see him go. I'd love to see him stay in QLD, but we move on. Its what the 5th team is all about. Providing opportunities. So Higgers goes South, and someone up here gets the chance to step up. Be it Shatz, Quirk, Browning - who knows. We may discover another Scott Fardy running around. Does Colby want to come home and play with his brothers? Has AJ Gilbert matured into a professional player? Is McDuling a legitimate 6 option?

I'd suggest Link will look within, that's the way he's approached it most of the time. This will be a good opportunity for someone and that's what development is all about.

Very nice post Reg. What about Browning, or is he still being looked at as a LHP conversion project? Shatz won't have the natural skills and flair of Higgers, but he is one tough bugger who could be anything in rugby.

 

[barbarian]

It's always been said that having this fifth team will broaden our players and that players who wouldn't have been able to play are now given a go. The Rebels have known about playing in the super competition since the end of 2009. So they've had time too look into the youth (that is, Schoolboys) around Australia and see who should be brought in. However, they persisted with the likes of Huxley, Mortlock, Frier etc who while possessing the "experience factor" are all largely past their prime (sure it was great to see Morty get that intercept last week, but it was painfully obvious how slow he is now).

Obviously you thought that by 'broaden our player base' it meant the established 4 teams hold on to all of their players, with all of the rejects and 'up-and-comers' going to Melbourne. But that was never what was going to happen. Established players would go down to Melbourne, and the opportunities would arise in the established franchises as well- just ask Bernard Foley, James Stannard, James Slipper etc.

The Rebels took the view that having a few 'old heads' would be good for establishing a team culture in an unfamiliar city. They also have brought in a number of young players, and started the Melbourne academy (now defunct after the ARU consolidated the academy system). But it isn't like Melbourne haven't brought through young or untested players- Hugh Pyle, Luke Jones, Jarrod Saffy, Lachlan Mitchell, Nick Phipps etc.

But this notion that somehow established players from other provinces are off limits is rubbish. Higgers went to Melbourne to chase the cash. He would have gone to France before staying in Queensland. When someone wants to chase the dollar they will. Even with no salary cap the Reds could not afford to hold onto him.
.

 

[RedsHappy]

There is only a finite pot of money that the ARU has to hand out though.

If this situation was created and the Tahs and Reds were told that they would get $1.25m less from the ARU per year to pay players but were entitled to spend however much they want overall, they would be outraged and there is no way either team would be able to afford to spend a figure higher than the current salary cap.

If you took away $1.25m from the Reds and told them they could spend what they wanted, it's not like they'd be able to spend $5m on a team and keep all their stars.

Oh look, I am only trying to be constructive FFS, now you come back and want to argue against your own suggestions! I haven't thought through all the permutations of something like this. And your $1.25m is a randomly chosen figure which you now have problems with.

But what you argue over is not necessarily correct. If the QRU/Reds continue their success, I'd guarantee that wealthy QLD businesses and rugby high net worths here would ramp up contributions and sponsorships hugely if they knew the QRU could then freely use that money to hold our best and buy the best. Many parties up here would much prefer a free market opportunity model than central control by RUPA and the ARU. They'd readily sacrifice some ARU money I'd bet to gain complete freedom to build a 'Reds dynasty' of consistent, longer term success.

 

[Ignoto]

Please.

Pyle, Jones, Phipps are three players who the Rebels have developed. The Rebel Rising squad, the majority of which are Victorian, have had an absolute tonne of money invested into them by the Rebels.

So you've got two locks and a half back there? Anyway, that's far from the point. As Reg pointed out, Link will look within and I guess I should have expressed myself in a better way, but he managed to sum it up in a couple of words.

 

[FiveStarStu]

Re Delve, and no doubt I'll be corrected here, but from one of the podcasts where he was interviewed, it sounded like he wanted to stay but the rebels weren't coming to the party?

Surely if he's that instrumental hey would have tried to keep him, he has been fantastic for them! Add to that they still have what 6 or 8 internationals they can sign for next year?

Unless of course they were already in positive talks with Higgers?


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If there were any chance, at all, whatsoever, that we could have re-signed Gary, we would have. He could have commanded any amount of money he wanted and he would have gotten it.

Unfortunately, the ARU only allows capped internationals to sign one two-year contract. JON can give special dispensation to sign another contract, but only if there is no Australian player available.

For the record, Gary himself hasn't yet announced where he's going next year.