Higgers to the Rebels

[Braveheart81]

If we went down the purely capitalist route, we wouldn't have a Perth and Melbourne team.

Would it make you feel better if instead of having the Western Force team we had a Queensland Crimsons team and they drew on half of the young Queensland talent?

We can't expect teams in non-traditional rugby markets to survive and thrive if they aren't artificially supported.

 

[Penguin]

Delves a great player and bloke, but higgers is the fucking man. I just hope you rebels fans appreciate him.

My thoughts exactly Bowside, from some of the Rebels fans comments it seems like they are taking him for granted already!

 

[RedsHappy]

Obviously you thought that by 'broaden our player base' it meant the established 4 teams hold on to all of their players, with all of the rejects and 'up-and-comers' going to Melbourne. But that was never what was going to happen. Established players would go down to Melbourne, and the opportunities would arise in the established franchises as well- just ask Bernard Foley, James Stannard, James Slipper etc.

The Rebels took the view that having a few 'old heads' would be good for establishing a team culture in an unfamiliar city. They also have brought in a number of young players, and started the Melbourne academy (now defunct after the ARU consolidated the academy system). But it isn't like Melbourne haven't brought through young or untested players- Hugh Pyle, Luke Jones, Jarrod Saffy, Lachlan Mitchell, Nick Phipps etc.

But this notion that somehow established players from other provinces are off limits is rubbish. Higgers went to Melbourne to chase the cash. He would have gone to France before staying in Queensland. When someone wants to chase the dollar they will. Even with no salary cap the Reds could not afford to hold onto him.
.

Barb, you have said this, what, 4 times in the Higgers context. How can you possibly know this so categorically without full knowledge of all of the QRU's forward budgets, cash-flow estimates, ARU grants look-forward, other actual and likely player costs for 2012 and 2013, 2012's gate income (likely to be by far the highest in Australia this year and a major income source, etc). If you have been told this by the QRU, pray say so and I'll double check it with Rod McCall.

 

[Richard D. James]

But what you argue over is not necessarily correct. If the QRU/Reds continue their success, I'd guarantee that wealthy QLD businesses and rugby high net worths here would ramp up contributions and sponsorships hugely if they knew the QRU could then freely use that money to hold our best and buy the best. Many parties up here would much prefer a free market opportunity model than central control by RUPA and the ARU. They'd readily sacrifice some ARU money I'd bet to gain complete freedom to build a 'Reds dynasty' of consistent, longer term success.

This is all heading towards one thing though isn't it? The privatisation of the Oz franchises. That's the only way each team will have that freedom.

 

[Troy]

I also hope that Damien Hill can get the most out of Higgers and take him to that next level. If he stalls at the Rebels I will be very upset.

Bit like Laurie Weeks? He was going well in QLD before the switch even touted as a possible Wallaby, how is he going now?

 

[Penguin]

If we went down the purely capitalist route, we wouldn't have a Perth and Melbourne team.

Would it make you feel better if instead of having the Western Force team we had a Queensland Crimsons team and they drew on half of the young Queensland talent?

We can't expect teams in non-traditional rugby markets to survive and thrive if they aren't artificially supported.

It would make me feel better, yes indeed!

 

[barbarian]

Huge points above, thanks Bb. Note all Aus posters extolling the seemingly hallowed benefits of our salary cap: RSA rugby now has 2-3 consistently strong top S15 teams who have won multiple and many S1x titles.

Well... not exactly. The Bulls have won titles, but the Stormers and Sharks have been Waratah-esque in their ability to be there or thereabouts yet not win anything. And I'm pretty sure both 'multiple' and 'many' mean exactly the same thing...

Sorry there's 2 weaker clubs but the harsh fact of capitalist life is that an emergent hierarchy of success over less success inevitably happens over time due to combinations of money and talent. But the obvious derived benefit is strength in depth over time, vs weakness in depth. I am not arguing that salary freedom is the reason the RSA S15 team situation is as it is, but it manifestly helps that top teams can hold their best players and further create virtuous, quality-consolidating circles whereby their relative commercial success can permit them to bid to gain the best up and coming players from all over RSA, as well and combine these players with their existing top players.

Just saying there are two 'weaker' clubs is not enough. There are two clubs who have been in the bottom 2 or 3 teams every year, with the exception of the Cheetahs this year. The Lions are now being relegated thanks to this, with Joburg now not even having a Super team.

So basically you are throwing two teams to the wolves (with all that entails financially), for what... three Super titles won by the one side?

Plus South Africa is a very different playing field in terms of supporter base. They are not faced with the challenges that we are in trying to spread the game. A lot of their fans will endure mediocre performances. Also they have a viable 2nd tier competition.

The consequences of throwing two teams to the wolves here would be far more dire.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

The consequences of throwing two teams to the wolves here would be far more dire.

This is a Bruce Ross quality pun.

 

[Troy]

If there were any chance, at all, whatsoever, that we could have re-signed Gary, we would have. He could have commanded any amount of money he wanted and he would have gotten it.

Unfortunately, the ARU only allows capped internationals to sign one two-year contract. JON can give special dispensation to sign another contract, but only if there is no Australian player available.

For the record, Gary himself hasn't yet announced where he's going next year.

ok So if I understand you correctly, although the Rebels started with 10 internationals, which reduces every year, no one player can stay for longer than 2 years? They then have to hire other internationals?

 

[FiveStarStu]

Different scenarios, from memory no-one had offered Samo or any of those (other than Daniel Braid(?)) a contract. We're talking about spending time and money that goes in developing a player not filling in a injury void.

It's always been said that having this fifth team will broaden our players and that players who wouldn't have been able to play are now given a go. The Rebels have known about playing in the super competition since the end of 2009. So they've had time too look into the youth (that is, Schoolboys) around Australia and see who should be brought in. However, they persisted with the likes of Huxley, Mortlock, Frier etc who while possessing the "experience factor" are all largely past their prime (sure it was great to see Morty get that intercept last week, but it was painfully obvious how slow he is now).

I'm unfamiliar with the Melbourne youth academy, but since it's inception how is it progressing?

So let's put a load of schoolboys into Super Rugby with nobody to learn from. Come on Victoria, get into rugby union and see your Melbourne Rebels get absolutely pasted for the first five years!

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm creating a new rugby team, I'd pay Stirling Mortlock whatever amount of money he wanted just to be around the new players I was bringing in. The amount they can learn from him in terms of skills and work ethic is worth it. Same with Adam Freier, Mark Gerrard, Julian Huxley et al. I don't care if they look like they're running through molasses, they're there for a higher purpose.

And to have Phipps in a Wallaby jersey, and Pyle, Jones, Vuna and Saffy all talked about for Wallaby selection after 1.5 seasons is a pretty ringing endorsement of that theory.

 

[FiveStarStu]

ok So if I understand you correctly, although the Rebels started with 10 internationals, which reduces every year, no one player can stay for longer than 2 years? They then have to hire other internationals?

If they've been capped for another country's representative team, yes, that's correct.

 

[Bullrush]

Huge points above, thanks Bb. Note all Aus posters extolling the seemingly hallowed benefits of our salary cap: RSA rugby now has 2-3 consistently strong top S15 teams who have won multiple and many S1x titles. Sorry there's 2 weaker clubs but the harsh fact of capitalist life is that an emergent hierarchy of success over less success inevitably happens over time due to combinations of money and talent. But the obvious derived benefit is strength in depth over time, vs weakness in depth. I am not arguing that salary freedom is the reason the RSA S15 team situation is as it is, but it manifestly helps that top teams can hold their best players and further create virtuous, quality-consolidating circles whereby their relative commercial success can permit them to bid to gain the best up and coming players from all over RSA, as well and combine these players with their existing top players. So the strong will get stronger this way, but that is exactly what's required to consistently compete with other top RSA teams and other non-RSA top teams. The right goal of the best managed teams is consistency of victories, not a once every decade (at best) affair. Then, having consolidated 2-3 consistently top teams, media and fan interest consolidates too, sponsorship and media $s grow, and the whole code thus gets healthier over time.

But sadly many posters here are comforted by the unproven notion that by a quasi unionist-socialist model of central code player cost control, in 10 long years time we might have 5 franchises that are all about at each other's standards of achievement (though no one quite knows what that levelled-out standard will be).

....and the most successful conference in Super Rugby DOES have a salary cap......damn quasi unioist-socialists!!

 

[Braveheart81]

Seemingly no consideration has been given to the fact that the Reds decision might have been influenced by the fact that instead of keeping Higgers, they could keep Gill, Quirk and Shatz who are all getting better at a rapid pace and could be there for a number of years and are still relatively cheap.

If Higgers was hanging around, a) it would use a lot more of their available funds and b) they wouldn't be able to offer the young players as much game time and they would go looking elsewhere.

 

[Penguin]

What a load of absolute rubbish.

So should the Reds have recruited Radike Samo last season? Surely there was a young guy running around they could have developed. The Reds should have known they would have injuries, and should have had a few young guys ready to step up. What about Adam Wallace-Harrison? Mike Harris? Daniel Braid?

This is just a classic case of fans of team X crying foul because one of their players chose to leave for another club. I know it hurts guys, but you know what they say "if you love someone, let them go..."
.

Erm, they have been developing young loosies. Quirk & Shatz... Mowen was another one, as was Brown. I would have liked to see Mowen hang around in Qld but he went for an opportunity. That's great & what I see having the extra teams is good for, giving the new generation a chance. I hate seeing players that have been developed & nurtured & just coming onto the form of their lives poached. It's not what the Rugby I was bought up on in the 70's 80's & 90's was all about.
For what it's worth I thought it sucked that Beale & JOC (James O'Connor) went there also. What might help one team doesn't help another and is ultimately self defeating.
I was happy with the Rebels attitude in their first year of starting. Just signing fringe players with huge potential & a few old heads looking for a new challenge for the experience factor. Now they're trying to buy a team of champions, history shows that this is doomed to fail. Get back to your original plan Mexicans and create a champion team instead!!!

 

[RedsHappy]

. And I'm pretty sure both 'multiple' and 'many' mean exactly the same thing....

Barb, when you get this petty and remonstrative, my motivation to continue a discussion lapses. Since I've been here, you've more or less always supported the status quo of Australian rugby union, I have more or less always debated and argued it should be changed. Let it be.

 

[RugbyReg]

Very nice post Reg. What about Browning, or is he still being looked at as a LHP conversion project? Shatz won't have the natural skills and flair of Higgers, but he is one tough bugger who could be anything in rugby.

Not sure about Browning, and no Schatz doesn't have the 'flair' of Higgers, but we saw on the weekend a forward oriented game plan that was not about flair, but about physicality and playing it tight. Schatz plays that game very well. Don't think we've seent he best of him as a lineout forward yet either.

 

[Ignoto]

So basically you are throwing two teams to the wolves (with all that entails financially), for what... three Super titles won by the one side?

Ok, fair points on not throwing teams to the wolves, but if we're going to adopt that approach then ensure the rules across all Australia teams are consistent, transparent and easy to navigate.

Currently, four of the five teams are restricted and placed in perpetual limbo by the salary cap while the other can conduct business in a way that suits them. How is this a better way of running our sport?

More importantly, what if this "share the love" approach doesn't work? What if we just have 5 mediocre teams that win the odd game here and there and finish mid of the table? While it's debatable whether the kiwis have a salary cap and their restrictions we're doing a further disservice to our sport by versuing the rest of the teams with essentially a hand behind our back.

So let's put a load of schoolboys into Super Rugby with nobody to learn from. Come on Victoria, get into rugby union and see your Melbourne Rebels get absolutely pasted for the first five years!

I never said Schoolboys, but knowing that Delve wasn't going to be around forever, what steps did the Rebels take to minimize his loss? Planning on negotiations going well and recruiting is a big gamble (just ask the Force), so whats the contingency plan?. Actually, if Delve goes down this week, what do you do?

And to have Phipps in a Wallaby jersey, and Pyle, Jones, Vuna and Saffy all talked about for Wallaby selection after 1.5 seasons is a pretty ringing endorsement of that theory.

I can't tell if you're being bias, but only one or two out of that list should ideally be anywhere near the Wallabies (Pyle and possibly Phipps) but that's another discussion.

 

[Braveheart81]

I hate seeing players that have been developed & nurtured & just coming onto the form of their lives poached. It's not what the Rugby I was bought up on in the 70's 80's & 90's was all about.
For what it's worth I thought it sucked that Beale & JOC (James O'Connor) went there also. What might help one team doesn't help another and is ultimately self defeating.

Do you begrudge the fact that it is now a professional sport and the players can earn a living from it?

Surely now we have a sport where the skill level, fitness and physique is light years ahead of where it was in the pre-professional era and players with talent from any walk of life have an opportunity.

Surely one of the major reasons why private schoolboys dominated rugby ranks before it was professional is because they came from wealthier families and could be supported in going to university and pursuing their rugby at the same time rather than leaving school and getting a job or leaving school and working/studying at the same time.

 

[Jiggles]

^^ Hopefully Link sticks with the Schatz-Higgers-Gill backrow for the most part with Robinson coming off the bench, it could be good for Schatz to have a bit of stability and see what he is like over a longer time frame.

 

[Brisbok]

....and the most successful conference in Super Rugby DOES have a salary cap......damn quasi unioist-socialists!!

I'd be very interested to see how that works and what the cap actually is. Unless it was almost unlimited, I'm not sure how they could have fit the likes of the Franks brothers, Brad Thorn, Sam Whitelock, McCaw, Read, Ellis, Carter, $BW, Guildford and Dagg - all established All Blacks last year - under the 'cap'.