Bledisloe 2 - Saturday 25th August 2018 - Eden Park, Auckland

[fatprop]

I think there is a strong chance Latu gets dropped for this game. It's a good opportunity to blood Fainga'a and Latu's performance in Sydney doesn't make it a risky move.

Latu was picked for his work around the field, he didn't deliver

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[Brumby Runner]

I'd just stick with Tui, he's still had more good games than bad and the lineout options seemed to stem from catastrophically misguided tactical decisions like throwing in to a diagonal lineout etc.

I have 0 idea why the scrum failed though. Seriously, where did that come from? Robertson and Kepu have been fine all year without being amazing and they both fronted up fine against Ireland who are strong scrummagers.

That being said i think the set piece really collapsed wholesale when substitutions were made. Ainsley should not be a capped test player, and Latu had little to no impact around the ground and an incredibly poor game at the lineout. So hopefully if we can bring some better players onto the bench we won't shit the bed quite so badly.

Slipper ought to be called up if Sio & Tupou remain unfit.

At least one late scrum with AA on it held up well and the Wallabies had no trouble winning the ball. Maybe it was more a problem of the use of the bench by the coaches than the starting personnel involved? No way ever should Ainsley have come on before Ala'alatoa.

 

[Brumby Runner]

And let's face it, the back row isn't our problem.

It is not the only problem, but against NZ it is a problem.

 

[Braveheart81]

At least one late scrum with AA on it held up well and the Wallabies had no trouble winning the ball. Maybe it was more a problem of the use of the bench by the coaches than the starting personnel involved? No way ever should Ainsley have come on before Ala'alatoa.

Ainsley only came on for that 5 minute period at the end of the first half.

Ala'alatoa came on as a permanent replacement much earlier.

 

[Brumby Runner]

It does kind of amaze me that people continue to go back to this when we lose regardless of how well they both play.

Our tight five were awful, our backs coughed up the ball a couple of times leading directly to tries yet because we picked two 7s they somehow have to be the reason why we lost.

For the record BH, I have nominated the poor selection of starting hooker, the poor use of the bench props, the poor bench cover for Lock, the very poor combination of Foley/Beale at 10/12 and the poor form of our wingers as factors of the disappointing result, along with the Pooper. Confining some comment to just one of the factors when relevant to the discussion at hand does not imply that it is the only issue.

On the question of issues, you have now identified some that you are concerned about. What are your suggestions for fixing those particular aspects? I would really appreciate some of your ideas and not just a lesson in what Michael Cheika will do.

 

[Brumby Runner]

There is clearly a challenge to "balance" in the back line with a double 7 selection. The line out being one potential issue and ruck/hitting up work-load that transfers to the locks being another.

BUT

We saw against Ireland that these matters can be addressed at which point you surely take the opportunity to put your two best players on the field. Whatever was happening here the Pooper is not the cause.

Note also that other top 5 nations have occasionally adopted similar stratagems. Certainly England have used a double-6. From recollection South Africa may have done the same at one stage.

Looking at results, I'd say that two 6s seem to work better than two 7s.

 

[Joe Blow]

It was a really shoddy performance up front and it illustrated how important Sio has been recently. Tui struggled to combine well with Hooper and Pocock. It would not be bad to have another 6 option available, Cottrell is a seasoned backrower and is worth a look. I’d guess that Hanigan might start this week at 6 and Arnold may come into contention. Having Sio and TT back will help a great deal at scrum time.
On selections, often times Cheka will just beat a dead horse when tough decisions need to be made. We need to go back to having a 3 man selection panel where two are not directly involved in the day to day stuff. They can give Cheika a different perspective based on what he says he is trying to achieve as well as highlight some of the issues that he finds hard to recognise. Eales, Gregan, Kafer etc. There are many others that would offer what we need in selections.

 

[Derpus]

Koroibete played pretty well i thought. That turnover try was pretty fucking bullshit frankly. Sure ball security was a bit of an issue but he was clearly tackled by the time it got filched. Shoulda been penalty us.

 

[Braveheart81]

On the question of issues, you have now identified some that you are concerned about. What are your suggestions for fixing those particular aspects? I would really appreciate some of your ideas and not just a lesson in what Michael Cheika will do.

I would pick Fainga'a on the bench instead of Latu, I would pick Banks to debut at fullback and otherwise leave the backs untouched.

Sio or Tupou fit would return to the team. Sio would start and Tupou would be on the bench. If both return I would give Ala'alatoa a crack at reserve LHP as Robertson didn't have a good game.

On the whole I think we picked our best players available and will do so again. They need to play better.

We were competitive for long periods of time. We need to cut down our mistakes particularly with ball in hand as that cost us a couple of tries and we badly need to fix our set piece.

I think our best three players were Pocock, Beale and Hooper in that order. I don't think there are big issues to resolve in the Pooper combination or the 10/12 combo. Foley didn't have a great game but he was fine. He was far from one of our worst.

 

[Braveheart81]

Koroibete played pretty well i thought. That turnover try was pretty fucking bullshit frankly. Sure ball security was a bit of an issue but he was clearly tackled by the time it got filched. Shoulda been penalty us.

He missed a lot of tackles.

We need to go back to having a 3 man selection panel where two are not directly involved in the day to day stuff.

If you want to do this it needs to be a serious job. It doesn't work unless they are committed to watching a lot of rugby and not just the games but analysis as well.

I don't think it helps if it is basically just adding a couple of punters to have a vote. If they are going to be involved in more than selecting a squad they also need to attend training. I can't see it happening.

Have we ever had a selection panel since the game went professional and test rugby became more than a few games a year?

It was worthwhile back in the amateur days because each test team assembling was effectively starting from scratch. Now it is very much a team in its own right that builds from test window to test window and year to year.

 

[tragic]

We didn’t really get dusted in the scrum - other than a single scrum when Ainsley was on we weren’t driven backward.
The collapses were a lottery - I have a sneaking suspicion if the ABs had been on the receiving end of the penalties they would have miraculously stopped.
I wouldn’t make any changes based on the scrum (other than the returning incumbents).
The lineout and the collisions are a different story

 

[Braveheart81]

We didn’t really get dusted in the scrum - other than a single scrum when Ainsley was on we weren’t driven backward.
The collapses were a lottery - I have a sneaking suspicion if the ABs had been on the receiving end of the penalties they would have miraculously stopped.
I wouldn’t make any changes based on the scrum (other than the returning incumbents).

I agree with that. I thought on one Robertson was really unlucky as Franks just flopped flat onto the ground. When the calls are going against you though you've got to find a way to improve.

The only reason I'd give Ala'alatoa a go as reserve LHP is I thought he went well and he's currently the best player that misses the 23 when everyone is fit.

Hopefully at least one of Sio or Ala'alatoa return and Ainsley isn't required.

 

[Brumby Runner]

BH, thank you. I would also like to see Fainga'a have a bench spot in place of Latu. He really seemed to have problems with his throwing and he didn't do a lot around the ground to compensate for that problem.

Personally, I'd move Hodge to 15 where his ability to kick long would be more of an asset, without so much danger from a charge down. That would mean Maddocks, Banks and Koroibete fighting for the two wing spots.

I disagree that Foley was fine. His kicking game is terribly unimpressive and he doesn't offer enough challenge to the defense the way he plays the game. I think Beale and To'omua working in combination at 10/12, swapping roles as the game situation dictates would operate better than Foley/Beale. Both Beale and To'omua have significantly better kicking games than Foley and backed up by Hodge being avaialable at 15, we could be on a winner. Beale is measures more creative than Foley and would continue to be useful in the 10 spot as he is now. To'omua would just be so much better at 12 than Bernard that the combination would have more chance of challenging the ABs' defense than the present setup.

There is just about universal recognition that the best two players were Pocock and Beale in that order. Beyond that, no other player, including Michael Hooper covered themselves in any sort of glory. Third best, whomever any of us pick, means nothing in the context of that game.

It is worrying just how much we rely on the best props to be fit and available in order to mix it with good opposition at scrum time. We certainly do continue to have depth problems in many areas.

 

[Brumby Runner]

He missed a lot of tackles.



If you want to do this it needs to be a serious job. It doesn't work unless they are committed to watching a lot of rugby and not just the games but analysis as well.

I don't think it helps if it is basically just adding a couple of punters to have a vote. If they are going to be involved in more than selecting a squad they also need to attend training. I can't see it happening.

Have we ever had a selection panel since the game went professional and test rugby became more than a few games a year?

It was worthwhile back in the amateur days because each test team assembling was effectively starting from scratch. Now it is very much a team in its own right that builds from test window to test window and year to year.

Yes, a selection panel would need to be established in a proper manner and would need to be able to travel to and attend as many matches as possible. But wouldn't that be more probably than the head coach alone being the arbiter of form in mutiple games where he just can't possible attend them all?

 

[Braveheart81]

BH, thank you. I would also like to see Fainga'a have a bench spot in place of Latu. He really seemed to have problems with his throwing and he didn't do a lot around the ground to compensate for that problem.

Personally, I'd move Hodge to 15 where his ability to kick long would be more of an asset, without so much danger from a charge down. That would mean Maddocks, Banks and Koroibete fighting for the two wing spots.

I disagree that Foley was fine. His kicking game is terribly unimpressive and he doesn't offer enough challenge to the defense the way he plays the game. I think Beale and To'omua working in combination at 10/12, swapping roles as the game situation dictates would operate better than Foley/Beale. Both Beale and To'omua have significantly better kicking games than Foley and backed up by Hodge being avaialable at 15, we could be on a winner. Beale is measures more creative than Foley and would continue to be useful in the 10 spot as he is now. To'omua would just be so much better at 12 than Bernard that the combination would have more chance of challenging the ABs' defense than the present setup.

Who plays 13 if you move Hodge to 15? That seems the most unlikely change to happen. I can't see Meakes debuting at 13 when he is normally a 12.

What exactly did To'omua do to suggest things will go better with him starting?

Anyway, 10/12/13 shouldn't change for this Saturday and they won't change.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes, a selection panel would need to be established in a proper manner and would need to be able to travel to and attend as many matches as possible. But wouldn't that be more probably than the head coach alone being the arbiter of form in mutiple games where he just can't possible attend them all?

It's his full time job though. Between him and his assistants I would be very surprised if they aren't watching every Aussie game each week and also analysis of those games.

They are obviously also at all the training sessions.

Unless a selection panel is fully engaged it just ends up being a design by committee situation.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Are we all happy to not hold the coach fully accountable for the losses if he doesn't get the team he wants?

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[Up the Guts]

Yes, Foley’s kicking game is not that long but we actually didn’t do too badly on the tactical long kicking game. We actually found grass a few times and at one point NZ kicked to us and DHP sent it way back over their heads and they had to turn and chase, something that often happens to us.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes, Foley’s kicking game is not that long bet we actually didn’t do too badly on the tactical long kicking game. We actually found grass a few times and at one point NZ kicked to us and DHP sent it way back over their heads and they had to turn and chase, something that often happens to us.

I reckon there was only one clearance under pressure where we really gained no ground. Hodge isn't suited to those anyway as he is too slow.

Beale is our best option.

To'omua doesn't have a great kicking game. He has more distance than Foley but is hardly a huge or precise kicker.

Most of Foley's kicks in general play found grass.

 

[Up the Guts]

I’d really like to see Fainga’a. His ball playing skills could be a real asset if the game opens up in the back end.