Australia's 5th team

[Lindommer]

There are 98 Oz rugby players (and 19 coaches) plying their trade oveseas. Can we get that list to 100?

Got 'em: Jye Mullane for Beziers and Wade Grintell for Stade Aurillac. Wade's story seems to back Lee's theory on the future of league players when they reach 20 or so. Check this: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/new...club-speaking-the-right-language/1233493.aspx

 

[Cutter]

Grintell is still yet to get a game. I doubt this will be much of a pathway, particularly for forwards.

I would cut your list of 28 back to about 10.

 

[Lindommer]

My final list (for the moment) of 112 Australian rugby players plying their trade overseas. I've had to use a wobbly thumb as a rule for some players, eg, Dwayne Haare and Scott Gray weren't born in Oz and although they played here call themselves Kiwis and Zimbabweans at their current clubs. On the other hand (thumb?) Corey Niwa was born in NZ and calls himself a Kiwi; he played 7s for Oz so he's tied to us. Players such as Mike Hercus and Luke Evans have been classified as Australian, although born elsewhere they spent all their formative years here. Players born here of Kiwi parentage who went back without any rugby history in Oz haven't been listed. Finally, any overseas Oz player eligible for another country is listed in red.

player club country
Greg Barden Bristol Eng
Shaun Berne Bath Eng
Jon Burnett Oxford Eng
Marco Cecere Bedford Eng
Brent Cockbain Sale Eng
Tim Curran London Irish Eng
Myles Dorrian Coventry Eng
Mark Gabey Yatton Eng
James Greenwood Waterloo Eng
Justin Harrison Bath Eng
Peter Hewat London Irish Eng
Brad Hunt Rotherham Eng
Ben Jacobs Saracens Eng
Wade Kelly Exeter Eng
Chris Latham Worcester Eng
Michael Lipman Bath Eng
Chris Malone Harlequins Eng
Lachlan Mitchell Wasps Eng
Dan Montagu Nottingham Eng
Marc Sweeney Newbury Eng
Tim Usasz Nottingham Eng
Dan Vickerman Cambridge Eng
Alex Walker Saracens Eng
Marty Wilson Cambridge Eng 24
Fotu Auelua Toulon Fra
Nic Berry Racing Paris Fra
Rodney Blake Bayonne Fra
Tim Bowker Albi Fra
Al Campbell Montpellier Fra
Tim Clark Limoges Fra
Sam Cordingley Grenoble Fra
Ben Coutts Stade Montois Fra
Paul Dearlove Pau Fra
Clint Eadie Bressane Fra
Manny Edmonds Bayonne Fra
Mark Gasnier Stade Francais Fra
Craig Gower Bayonne Fra
Wade Grintell Stade Aurillac Fra
Matt Henjak Toulon Fra
Nathan Hines Perpignan Fra
Jack Isaac Biarritz Fra
Brock James Clermont Fra
Matthew Jolly Racing Paris Fra
Mafileo Kefu Toulon Fra
Steve Kefu Castres Fra
Lachlan MacKay Brive Fra
Jye Mullane Beziers Fra
Corey Niwa Colomiers Fra
Luke Rooney Toulon Fra
Chris Siale Tarbes Fra
Christopher Schmidt Nice Fra
Graydon Staniforth Stade Aurillac Fra
Nigel Staniforth Bressane Fra
Lei Tomiki Castres Fra 30
Liam Bibo Connacht Ire
Tom Court Ulster Ire
Tim Donnelly Connacht Ire
Rocky Elsom Leinster Ire
Andrew Farley Connacht Ire
Ed O'Donoghue Ulster Ire
Clinton Schifcofske Ulster Ire
Paul Warwick Munster Ire
Chris Whitaker Leinster Ire 9
Michael Aldridge Roma Ita
Mark Bartholomeusz Petrarca Ita
Steve Bortolussi Viadana Ita
Doug Fletcher Petrarca Ita
Mark Gilbride Treviso Ita
Lloyd Johansson Viadana Ita
Luke McLean Calvisano Ita
Winston Mafi Calvisano Ita
Peter-William Marrapodi Roma Ita
Todd Ollivier Roma Ita
Justin Purll Calvisano Ita
Cameron Treloar Calvisano Ita
Christian Warner Roma Ita
Brendan Williams Treviso Ita 14
Tim Atkinson Kyuden Voltex Jap
Andrew Brown Secom Jap
Tim Curran Secom Jap
Luke Doherty Kyuden Voltex Jap
Shane Drahm Kubota Jap
George Gregan Suntory Jap
Nathan Grey Kyuden Voltex Jap
Sam Harris Honda Jap
Daniel Heenan Sanyo Jap
Mike Hercus IBM Big Blue Jap
Drew Hickey Kubota Jap
Jim Hilgendorf Kintetsu Jap
Toutai Kefu Kubota Jap
Stephen Larkham Ricoh Jap
Tim LeNevez NTT Jap
Damian McInally Kubota Jap
Tom McVerry Kyuden Voltex Jap
Peter Miller Kyuden Voltex Jap
Darren Murphy NTT Jap
Ryan Nicholas Suntory Jap
Cameron Pither Honda Jap
Radike Samo Yokogawa Jap
Brett Stapleton Coca-Cola West Jap
Jone Tawake Secom Jap
Elia Tuqiri Sanyo Jap
Adam Wallace-Harrison Kobe Steel Jap
Joel Wilson Ricoh Jap
Matt Windle Secom Jap 28
Dan Parks Glasgow Sco 1
Mark Crick Potomac USA 1
Luke Evans Cardiff Wal
David Lyons Llanelli Scarlets Wal
Rory Sidey Newport Gwent Dragons Wal
Marc Stcherbina Newport Gwent Dragons Wal
Ben White Cardiff Wal 5

In addition to these playing prodigals I found 19 21 Australian coaches overseas. They are:

coach club country
Mark Bakewell Bath Eng
Pat Byron Suntory Jap
Michael Cheika Leinster Ire
Ben Darwin NTT Jap
Brad Davis Bath Eng
Laurie Fisher Munster Ire
Alan Gaffney Leinster Ire
Richard Graham Saracens Eng
Scott Johnson USA
Eddie Jones Saracens Eng
Les Kiss Ireland
Tim Lane Georgia
Todd Louden Ricoh Jap
Tony McGahan Munster Ire
Ewen McKenzie Stade Francais Fra
Steve Meehan Bath Eng
John Muggleton Llanelli Scarlets Wal
Mat O'Connor Leicester Eng
Brian Smith England
Adrian Thompson Kyuden Voltex Jap
Matt Williams Ulster Ire


To my way of thinking there's plenty of talent to put together a fifth Super side.

PS. If you reckon there are a lot of Australians playing overseas, check the numbers of Saffers and Kiwis on http://www.playerdrain.com/

Edited

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Luke Evans is so far a scarlet demon he would never play for Australia and probably never had any intention to do so. Word is he would have been in the Welsh U20 WC team if he had been fit, and could tackle.

 

[Lee Grant]

Thats great work on the lists Lindommer.

 

[RugbyReg]

thought we better bump this should Billy Millard or Steve Meehan (new Victorian Rebels coaches) read the site.

 

[Epi]

Rugby's meant to be a world game. Bring in a 5th team and open up the comp to foreigners without silly clauses. Be great to have a bit of international flavour in the comp.

 

[formeropenside]

Rugby's meant to be a world game. Bring in a 5th team and open up the comp to foreigners without silly clauses. Be great to have a bit of international flavour in the comp.

Good idea, lets call it Japan.

 

[Blue]

Rugby's meant to be a world game. Bring in a 5th team and open up the comp to foreigners without silly clauses. Be great to have a bit of international flavour in the comp.

Definitely. Maybe something like 50% of the squad Australians and no restriction on the rest. Will add something interesting.

 

[Biffo]

Yesss ... and easy to attract players - the Melbourne lifestyle and climate would be an irresistible magnet.

 

[naza]

Myles Dorrian is now at the Bedford Blues, with fellow Aussie James Pritchard who has 24 caps for Canada.

Is Nathan Spooner retired ? Jeez, I'm getting old. And has David Fitter taken up pie eating full time ?

 

[Biffo]

I'd love to see a pack made up of an all-Japanese front row [they have some massive beasts by any standards with excellent technique], two Australian (Queensland?) 2 metre high locks and three huge Samoa, Fiji, Tonga blokes in the back row. Am I allowed to say "colourful"? No? OK. Entertaining and a great spectacle ... and dangerous.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Myles Dorrian is now at the Bedford Blues, with fellow Aussie James Pritchard who has 24 caps for Canada.
Is Nathan Spooner retired ? Jeez, I'm getting old. And has David Fitter taken up pie eating full time ?

Nathan Spooner is back from OS and apparently selling cars in Mackay Qld

 

[Epi]

Yesss ... and easy to attract players - the Melbourne lifestyle and climate would be an irresistible magnet.

Eh?.. Melbourne is easily the best city in Australia to live... Best food, Best Bars, Best Women, only thing that spoils it is everyone constantly crapping on about AFL. :angryfire:

And it doesn't rain nearly as much as it does in Sydney...

 

[Biffo]

Yesss ... and easy to attract players - the Melbourne lifestyle and climate would be an irresistible magnet.

Eh?.. Melbourne is easily the best city in Australia to live... Best food, Best Bars, Best Women, only thing that spoils it is everyone constantly crapping on about AFL. :angryfire:

And it doesn't rain nearly as much as it does in Sydney...

Why the "eh?" when you go on and agree with me ???

 

[Blue]

Yesss ... and easy to attract players - the Melbourne lifestyle and climate would be an irresistible magnet.

Eh?.. Melbourne is easily the best city in Australia to live... Best food, Best Bars, Best Women, only thing that spoils it is everyone constantly crapping on about AFL. :angryfire:

And it doesn't rain nearly as much as it does in Sydney...

Explain why babies are born holding a brolly in one hand a Sherrin in the other?

Anyhoo I think a Melbourne franchise would really attract player interest. It is a great city. If you don't surf that is.

 

[Epi]

Yesss ... and easy to attract players - the Melbourne lifestyle and climate would be an irresistible magnet.

Eh?.. Melbourne is easily the best city in Australia to live... Best food, Best Bars, Best Women, only thing that spoils it is everyone constantly crapping on about AFL. :angryfire:

And it doesn't rain nearly as much as it does in Sydney...

Why the "eh?" when you go on and agree with me ???

I assumed you were being sarcastic once you mentioned the climate... (Sydney people always think it's constantly drizzling but it's actually very dry these days - too dry)

My bad!

 

[Lindommer]

Here's a final list of Australian players and coaches up to the end of the 2008/09 NH season, taking into account Japan finishes in February and some Aussies (Davidson) have gone part way through the season.

The history of rugby traffic between Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific Islands is a rich and long one and I haven't tagged every NZ/PI player eligible for others, simply because I often don't know. On occasions players have crossed the ditch just to get a game, for example, Steve Devine retained his Australian passport for the entire time he lived in NZ while he played for the Blues and All Blacks. As did Greg Davis and Owen Stephens when they played here. Similarly, a lot of Kiwis and PIs never take out Oz citizenship even though they live and play rugby here. This rich melting pot of rugby experience makes for some difficulty when classifying players as Australian or otherwise. I've used the following criteria allied with a dose of commonsense:

1. the player's senior rugby experience;
2. formal ties to a country;
3. what the players calls himself.

A few examples:

1. Ryan Nicholas was born in Broken Hill to NZ/PI parents. He's obviously eligible to pay for Australia but returned to NZ with his parents and his entire senior Australasian rugby experience was there, for Otago and the Highlanders. Being Oz-eligible, he flirted with the idea of joining the Reds recently but has since played for Japan and calls himself a Kiwi on his Japanese club's website. I don't think it's possible to classify Ryan as an Australian rugby player.

2. Dwayne Haare, on the other hand, was born in NZ and came to Sydney as a young man. His senior Australasian rugby experience was at Randwick and the Waratahs. Although he refers to himself as a Kiwi on his French club's website I'm going to tag him an Australian rugby player.

3. Scott Gray is in the Australian section on Player Drain (a website for SH rugby wanderers). I confess I hadn't heard of him; after some research I found out he was born in Zimbabwe and came to Oz as a young man, joining the Brumbies Academy in an attempt to win a Super contract. He didn't, and subsequently played two seasons of rugby league with the Brisbane Broncos before departing for Britain where he joined Bath. Scott's father is Scottish and Scott has since played for Scotland. With no senior rugby experience in Australia for me he's not an Australian rugby player.

4. Corey Niwa: Corey was born and brought up in NZ where he played for Taranaki before wandering over to Oz, joining Wests Tigers RL. He subsequently wandered up to the Gold Coast and played rugby for the Breakers. He now plays for Colomiers in France and refers to himself as a Kiwi on their website. But crucially, he played 7s for Australia in 2006 so he's tied to Oz.

5. Players such as Lipman, Hines, Cockbain, Parks and Court, etc, have played for other countries and aren't eligible for Oz although born in Australia, apart from Lipman who was born in England; his school and immediate senior rugby experience (including NSW and Australia under 21s) was in Oz which allows me to claim him as an Australian rugby player. A somewhat similar record to Martin Johnson's, but I wouldn't for a moment classify Martin as a NZ rugby player; for me the crucial difference is Michael came to Oz as a very young boy and all of his formative years were spent here.

6. Players such as Bibo, O'Donoghue, White and Usasz et al are eligible for other countries; while they're playing overseas I reckon there's some intent (and/or hope) to play for another country so I've noted that in blue on my list while still filing them on the Oz side of the ledger. When they're selected for that other country, as Evans surely will, their colour will change to red.

Here's the list of players:

[size=14pt]player[size=14pt]club[size=14pt]country[size=14pt]#
Greg BardenBristolEng
Shaun BerneBathEng
Jon BurnettOxford UniversityEng
Marco CecereBedfordEng
Brent CockbainSaleEng
Tim CurranLondon IrishEng
Tim DavidsonLeeds CarnegieEng
Myles DorrianCoventryEng
Chris GabbettWallingfordEng
James GreenwoodWaterlooEng
Dan GuinnessOxford UniversityEng
Justin HarrisonBathEng
Matt HastieTauntonEng
Peter HewatLondon IrishEng
Brad HuntRotherhamEng
Ben JacobsSaracensEng
Tom JonesChinnorEng
Chris LathamWorcesterEng
Michael LipmanBathEng
David McCallumEstherEng
Chris MaloneHarlequinsEng
Lachlan MitchellWaspsEng
Dan MontaguNottinghamEng
Angus Neilson ChinnorEng
David PaiceLondon IrishEng
James PritchardBedfordEng
Moses RauluniSaracensEng
Tim UsaszNottinghamEng
Dan VickermanCambridge UniversityEng
Alex WalkerSaracensEng
Tim WalshNewburyEng
Marty WilsonCambridge UniversityEng32
Fotu AueluaToulonFra
Nic BerryRacing ParisFra
Rodney BlakeBayonneFra
Tim BowkerAlbiFra
Al CampbellMontpellierFra
Tim ClarkLimogesFra
Shane CollinsLimogesFra
Sam CordingleyGrenobleFra
Ben CouttsMont de MarsanFra
Paul DearlovePauFra
Clint EadieBressaneFra
Manny EdmondsBayonneFra
Mark GasnierStade FrancaisFra
Craig GowerBayonneFra
Wade GrintellStade AurillacFra
Dwayne HaareBayonneFra
William HeluLimogesFra
Matt HenjakToulonFra
Nathan HinesPerpignanFra
Brock JamesClermontFra
Matthew JollyRacing ParisFra
Mafileo KefuToulonFra
Steve KefuCastresFra
Lachlan MacKayBriveFra
Ben MartinMarseille VitrollesFra
Jye MullaneBeziersFra
Corey NiwaColomiersFra
Luke RooneyToulonFra
Christopher SchmidtNiceFra
Chris SialeTarbesFra
Chris SlackSaint NazaireFra
Graydon StaniforthStade AurillacFra
Nigel StaniforthBressaneFra
Lei TomikiCastresFra
Henari VeratauRacing ParisFra35
Dan ArmitageHeidelbergerGer
Sean ArmstrongHeidelbergerGer
Henry BurridgeHeidelbergerGer
Ewan McGregorHeidelbergerGer
Steve WilliamsNeuenheimGer5
Liam BiboConnachtIre
Tom CourtUlsterIre
Tim DonnellyConnachtIre
Rocky ElsomLeinsterIre
Andrew FarleyConnachtIre
Ed O'Donoghue UlsterIre
Dan RoachUlsterIre
Clinton SchifcofskeUlsterIre
Paul WarwickMunsterIre
Chris WhitakerLeinsterIre10
Michael AldridgeRomaIta
Mark BartholomeuszPetrarcaIta
Steve BortolussiViadanaIta
Doug FletcherPetrarcaIta
Mark GilbrideTrevisoIta
John GrassoCataniaIta
Lloyd JohanssonViadanaIta
Wade KellyAlgheroIta
Luke McLeanCalvisanoIta
Winston MafiCalvisano Ita
Peter-William MarrapodiRomaIta
Todd OllivierRomaIta
Justin PurllCalvisanoIta
Mark SweeneyL'AquilaIta
Cameron TreloarCalvisanoIta
Christian WarnerRomaIta
Brendan WilliamsTrevisoIta17
Tim AtkinsonKyuden VoltexJap
Andrew BrownSecomJap
Tim CurranSecomJap
Shane DrahmKubotaJap
George GreganSuntoryJap
Nathan GreyKyuden VoltexJap
Sam HarrisHondaJap
Daniel HeenanSanyoJap
Mike HercusIBM Big BlueJap
Drew HickeyKubotaJap
Jim HilgendorfKintetsuJap
Pierre HolaKobe SteelJap
Stephen LarkhamRicohJap
Tim LeNevezNTTJap
Damian McInallyKubotaJap
Tom McVerryKyuden VoltexJap
Peter MillerKyuden VoltexJap
Darren MurphyNTTJap
Cameron PitherHondaJap
Radike SamoYokogawaJap
Brett StapletonCoca-Cola WestJap
Jone TawakeSecomJap
Elia TuqiriSanyoJap
Adam Wallace-HarrisonKobe SteelJap
Joel WilsonRicohJap
Matt WindleSecomJap
Charles WyllieTokyo GasJap27
Dan ParksGlasgowSco
Mat WhittlestonGlasgow HawksSco2
Mark CrickPotomacUSA1
Luke EvansCardiff BluesWal
David LyonsLlanelli ScarletsWal
Rory SideyNewport Gwent DragonsWal
Marc StcherbinaNewport Gwent DragonsWal
Ben WhiteCardiff BluesWal5

red players ineligible for Oz
blue players eligible for others

[size=14pt]for 2009/10 season
Josh AfuNewcastleEng
Ben Batger?
Gene FairbanksJap
Mark GerrardNTTJap
Tamaiti HoruaUlsterIre
Sam Norton-KnightCardiff BluesWal
Junior PelesasaJap
David Pusey?
Clyde Rathbone?
Scott StaniforthJap
Pauliasi TaumoepeauJap


Here are the coaches:


[size=14pt]coach[size=14pt]club[size=14pt]country[size=14pt]#
Mark BakewellBathEng
Brad DavisBathEng
Mark GabeyYattonEng
Richard GrahamSaracensEng
Peter HorneSaracensEng
Jim McKay Leicester Tigers AcademyEng
Steve MeehanBathEng
Matt O'ConnorLeicesterEng
Brian SmithEngland9
Jack IsaacBiarritzFra
Ewen McKenzieStade FrancaisFrance2
Tim LaneGeorgia1
Murray ArchibaldHeidelbergerGermany1
Michael CheikaLeinsterIre
Laurie FisherMunsterIre
Alan GaffneyLeinsterIre
Tony McGahanMunsterIre
Matt WilliamsUlsterIre
Les KissIreland6
Pat ByronSuntoryJap
Ben DarwinNTTJap
Shannon FraserNTTJap
Sean HedgerKobe SteelJap
Charlie HigginsNTTJap
Eddie JonesSuntory Jap
Todd LoudenRicohJap
Baden StephensonSecomJap
Adrian ThompsonKyuden VoltexJapan9
Grant DwyerCiencias SevillaSpain1
Rex LawrenceVenezuela1
Scott JohnsonOspreysWal
Bill MillardCardiff BluesWal
John MuggletonLlanelli ScarletsWales3
[size=14pt]for 2009/10 season
Tai McIsaacHondaJap
John Mulvihill?


Have a go at picking a fifth Australian Super side from that lot.

Any omissions, alterations or additions will be gratefully received.

 

[Spook]

Lind, could I be so bold as to ask for an extra column with player position? :-[ :thumb

 

[Lindommer]

Yes, you can be so bold as to ask.