Australia's 5th team

[Lindommer]

In addition to my coaches list, I've made up a list of Oz players plying their trade os. I've included any mungoes who haven't played rugby (yet) together with Australians who've qualified to play for other countries. There are a lot of names here who are about 30, or on the wrong side; conversely, there are too many names of blokes who couldn't get a start in one of the four pro teams.

Let me know of any errors or omissions and I'll adjust the master list.

Could we make a decent 5th super team out of this lot?

player club country
Michael Aldridge Roma Ita
Tim Atkinson Kyuden Voltex Jap
Fotu Auelua Toulon Fra
Mark Bartholomeusz Petrarca Ita
Shaun Berne Bath Eng
Nic Berry Racing Paris Fra
Liam Bibo Connacht Ire
Rodney Blake Bayonne Fra
Tim Bowker Albi Fra
Andrew Brown Secom Jap
Jon Burnett Oxford Uni Eng
Al Campbell Montpellier Fra
Tim Clark Limoges Fra
Brent Cockbain Sale Eng
Sam Cordingley Grenoble Fra
Tom Court Ulster Ire
Ben Coutts Mont de Marsan Fra
Mark Crick Potomac USA
Tim Curran Secom Jap
Paul Dearlove Pau Fra
Luke Doherty Kyuden Voltex Jap
Tim Donnelly Connacht Ire
Shane Drahm Kubota Jap
Manny Edmonds Bayonne Fra
Rocky Elsom Leinster Ire
Andrew Farley Connacht Ire
Doug Fletcher Petrarca Ita
Mark Gasnier Stade Francais Fra
Mark Gilbride Treviso Ita
Craig Gower Bayonne Fra
James Greenwood Waterloo Eng
George Gregan Suntory Jap
Nathan Grey Kyuden Voltex Jap
Dwayne Haare Bayonne Fra
Sam Harris Honda Jap
Justin Harrison Bath Eng
Daniel Heenan Sanyo Jap
Matt Henjak Toulon Fra
Mike Hercus IBM Big Blue Jap
Peter Hewat London Irish Eng
Drew Hickey Kubota Jap
Jim Hilgendorf Kintetsu Jap
Nathan Hines Perpignan Fra
Jack Isaac Biarritz Fra
Ben Jacobs Saracens Eng
Brock James Clermont Fra
Lloyd Johansson Viadana Ita
Matthew Jolly Racing Paris Fra
Mafileo Kefu Toulon Fra
Steve Kefu Castres Fra
Toutai Kefu Kubota Jap
Stephen Larkham Ricoh Jap
Chris Latham Worcester Eng
Tim LeNevez NTT Jap
Michael Lipman Bath Eng
David Lyons Llanelli Scarlets Wal
Damian McInally Kubota Jap
Lachlan MacKay Brive Fra
Luke McLean Calvisano Ita
Tom McVerry Kyuden Voltex Jap
Winston Mafi Calvisano Ita
Chris Malone Harlequins Eng
Lachlan Mitchell Wasps Eng
Darren Murphy NTT Jap
Ryan Nicholas Suntory Jap
Corey Niwa Colomiers Fra
Ed O'Donoghue Ulster Ire
Todd Ollivier Roma Ita
Dan Parks Glasgow Sco
Cameron Pither Honda Jap
Justin Purll Calvisano Ita
Luke Rooney Toulon Fra
Radike Samo Yokogawa Jap
Clinton Schifcofske Ulster Ire
Chris Siale Tarbes Fra
Rory Sidey Gwent Dragons Wal
Christopher Schmidt Nice Fra
Graydon Staniforth Stade Aurillac Fra
Nigel Staniforth Bressane Fra
Brett Stapleton Coca-Cola West Jap
Marc Stcherbina Gwent Dragons Wal
Marc Sweeney Newbury Eng
Jone Tawake Secom Jap
Lei Tomiki Castres Fra
Cameron Treloar Calvisano Ita
Elia Tuqiri Sanyo Jap
Dan Vickerman Cambridge Uni Eng
Adam Wallace-Harrison Kobe Steel Jap
Christian Warner Roma Ita
Paul Warwick Munster Ire
Chris Whitaker Leinster Ire
Brendan Williams Treviso Ita
Joel Wilson Ricoh Jap
Marty Wilson Cambridge Eng
Matt Windle Secom Jap

I can't find a club for Tim Clark. Found it: Limoges.

A few additions, etc.

 

[TOCC]

Luke McLean and Ryan nicholls have both being cappedvfor other countries now

 

[Lindommer]

So've Hines and Parks and Cockbain and Lipman. My point here is these players may not've played for other countries if there were other opportunities in Oz.

Of course, we'll never know.

Amended.

 

[RugbyReg]

Top stuff. Good list. So that's where Brett Stapeltons gone.

 

[Cutter]

Good research Lindommer. Red is edits/additions. Green are those players capped elsewhere. Blue are those who will be too old/too broken by 2010/11. Administrators - can we put this up the top. It might be interesting to keep an eye on it.

player club country
Michael Aldridge Roma Ita
Tim Atkinson Kyuden Voltex Jap
Fotu Auelua Toulon Fra
Mark Bartholomeusz Petrarca Ita
Shaun Berne Bath Eng
Nic Berry Racing Paris Fra
Liam Bibi Connacht Ire
Rodney Blake Bayonne Fra
Andrew Brown Secom Jap
Al Campbell Montpellier Fra
Brent Cockbain Sale Eng
Sam Cordingley Grenoble Fra
Tom Court Ulster Ire
Ben Coutts Mont de Marsan Fra
Mark Crick Potomac USA
Tim Curran Secom Jap
Paul Dearlove Pau Fra
Luke Doherty Kyuden Voltex Jap
Tim Donnelly Connacht Ire
Shane Drahm Kubota Jap
Manny Edmonds Bayonne Fra
Rocky Elsom Leinster Ire
Andrew Farley Connacht Ire
Doug Fletcher Petrarca Ita
Mark Gasnier Stade Francais Fra
Craig Gower Bayonne Fra
George Gregan Suntory Jap
Nathan Grey Kyuden Voltex Jap
Sam Harris ? in Japan Jap
Justin Harrison Bath Eng
Daniel Heenan Sanyo Jap
Matt Henjak Toulon Fra
Mike Hercus IBM Big Blue Jap
Peter Hewat London Irish Eng
Drew Hickey Kubota Jap
Jim Hilgendorf Kintetsu Jap
Nathan Hines Perpignan Fra
Ben Jacobs Saracens Eng
Brock James Clermont Fra
Lloyd Johansson Viadana Ita
Matthew Jolly Racing Paris Fra
Leo Kefu Toulon Fra
Steve Kefu Castres Fra
Toutai Kefu Kubota Jap
Stephen Larkham Ricoh Jap
Chris Latham Worcester Eng
Tim LeNevez NTT Jap
Michael Lipman Bath Eng
David Lyons Llanelli Scarlets Wal
Damian McInally Kubota Jap
Lachlan MacKay Brive Fra
Luke McLean Calvisano Ita
Tom McVerry Kyuden Voltex Jap
Winston Mafi Calvisano Ita
Chris Malone Harlequins Eng
Lachlan Mitchell Wasps Eng
Darren Murphy NTT Jap
Ryan Nicholas Suntory Jap
Todd Ollivier Roma Ita
Dan Parks Glasgow Sco
Justin Purll Calvisano Ita
Luke Rooney Toulon Fra
Radike Samo Yokogawa Jap
Clinton Schifcofske Ulster Ire
Chris Siale Tarbes Fra
Rory Sidey Gwent Dragons Wal
Graydon Staniforth Stade Aurillac Fra
Brett Stapleton Coca-Cola West Jap
Marc Stcherbina Gwent Dragons Wal
Marc Sweeney Somewhere Ita
Jone Tawake Secom Jap
Lei Tomiki Castres Fra
Cameron Treloar Calvisano Ita
Elia Tuqiri Sanyo Jap
Adam Wallace-Harrison Kobe Steel Jap
Christian Warner Roma Ita
Paul Warwick Munster Ire
Chris Whitaker Leinster Ire
Brendan Williams Treviso Ita
Joel Wilson Ricoh Jap
Marty Wilson Cambridge Eng
Tim Clarke somewhere France
Nigel Staniforth somewhere France

 

[Ash]

Mafi (Mafileo) Kefu, Toulon, France

Youngest of the 4 Kefu brothers, and is a hard running centre.

 

[formeropenside]

A hell of a lot of those players left Australia for a good reason: they just weren't S14 standard. Maybe now with more experience, some would be.

 

[RugbyReg]

I think Tom Court has now played Ireland A?

Not sure about Andrew Farley, but I thought he may have as well.

Thommo?

 

[RugbyReg]

I think Tom Court has now played Ireland A?

Not sure about Andrew Farley, but I thought he may have as well.

Thommo?

in fact I think Liam Bibo may have as well?

 

[RugbyReg]

couldn't see any hookers available?

15 Manny Edmonds
14 Lachlan Mitchell
13 Andrew Brown
12 Lloyd Johansson
11 Winston Mafi
10 Paul Warwick
9 Nic Berry
8 David Lyons
7 Tom McVerry
6 Rocky Elsom
5 Andrew Farley
4 Daniel Heenan
3 Rodney Blake
2 ???
1 Ben Coutts

16 ???
17 Tom Court
18 Adam Wallace-Harrison
19 Lei Tomiki
20 Matt Henjak
21 Brock James
22 Mark Gasnier

 

[Lindommer]

Couldn't see any hookers available?

Mark Crick

 

[formeropenside]

Tom Court is out, he played Ireland A before he even played for Ulster.

EDIT - it says on Ed O'D's Ulster profile that he is Ireland-qualified, so he may be lost also in time. He is starting for Ulster, while Tom Court is off the bench behind BJ Botha.

 

[Lee Grant]

Yeah good research Lindommer and Noddy.

There's about 80 players nominated there and the true picture would be more than that.

I've said what I am going to write before but let me try to express it a different way.

To the people who say that we don't have the players to have a 5th team: you are absolutely right; but only if you are talking about only those players in Oz at the moment.

To the people who say we will never have enough players to have a 5th team because we will always lose players overseas: I think you are absolutely wrong. Sure we will always lose players offshore to bigger pay packets and for the valid reason of wanting to experience a different part of the world, and especially if they are in demand because of their passport situation - but in any future year after the 5th team has kicked in, there will be fewer of them.

And if anyone mentions again why don't we have 100 teams - well, there is such a thing as the law of increasing and diminishing returns - look it up. I think the bell curve will top at 5 teams, but if it's a bit on the downside of the bell, the peak will move over a few years after the 5th team is established.

I was going to pick out from the 80 or so players listed who would be good enough to make a match day 22 of a 5th team but it's not the right exercise.

It's probably best to go through the list and take out the ones who were never good enough to play S14 rugby, those who were once good enough to play in the S14 but aren't any more, those who would have gone anyway for the money and/or the experience, those who have gone because they couldn't make the Wallabies on a regular basis, those who had to leave Oz to find themselves, and those with more than one reason for going.

I'd be surprised that even deducting those guys, we couldn't find 12 who would have stayed to be in a matchday 22 needed for a 5th team or at least stayed for a reasonable part of their playing careers for that purpose.

You have to include in that 12, especially, the fellows who went overseas because they couldn't get a S14 gig or because they were good enough to get a gig in a 5th team, but missed out starting regularly in one of the 4 teams because their rivals were outstanding players. You also have to include in the 12, players from Oz who are presently playing test rugby for European nations if they left home for those reasons.

The names of these notional 12 players are irrelevant because the names will change each year until we have a 5th team. The point is: the ability profile of the 12 players in any year won't change.

That will leave 10 players in a matchday 22 plus other squad members to be garnered domestically, though a couple of foreigners could be acquired. Say, roughly, 20 players, will have to be sourced in Oz, but you wouldn't expect all of them to have the ability of being regular matchday Super players.

The 4 Oz squads will be poached for these 20 to the extent that expiring contracts enable it, and academy ranks will be raped. One of the present 4 teams may suffer more than the others, as the Reds did with the advent of the Force, and another may stumble a bit too; but 4 years down the track the position should stabilise.

The transition years will be hardest because there will be lag time and having to find just 20 players at inception may be too hopeful, but this would be softened by having a long lead time between announcing a 5th team and when it starts playing. A 5th team for 2011 should be announced ASAP; a new team for 2010 should not be thought about.

Even with a long lead time it will be a lot tougher to start up a 5th team than it was starting up the Force because of diminishing returns from a player base that is increasing, but slowly. Eventually we should be able to man our 5 teams with more or less the same success as we have now with 4 and no doubt there will always be 1 or 2 weak Oz teams in the 5.

Unless we have a quantum step in player growth and an ARC type competition to develop a 3rd tier between 2nd tier Super rugby and 4th tier club rugby, 5 professional teams will be our lot in the SANZAR Super paradigm.

 

[Lindommer]

it says on Ed O'D's Ulster profile that he is Ireland-qualified, so he may be lost also in time. He is starting for Ulster, while Tom Court is off the bench behind BJ Botha.

EOD was born in London of Irish parents, so if he hasn't qualified for Oz he's straight into the Irish team.

He's not on Ulster Rugby's website, where'd you get the "Ulster profile" from FOS? I've added him to my master list.

 

[formeropenside]

it says on Ed O'D's Ulster profile that he is Ireland-qualified, so he may be lost also in time. He is starting for Ulster, while Tom Court is off the bench behind BJ Botha.

EOD was born in London of Irish parents, so if he hasn't qualified for Oz he's straight into the Irish team.

He's not on Ulster Rugby's website, where'd you get the "Ulster profile" from FOS? I've added him to my master list.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/rugby/8734.php?player=5097&includeref=dynamic

I thought it was the Ulster rugby site.

 

[Lindommer]

Tom Court is out, he played Ireland A before he even played for Ulster.

Tom had an Irish grandfather, that's how come he got a run for Ireland A the moment he stepped off the plane.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Top stuff. Good list. So that's where Brett Stapeltons gone.

Anyone who has watched him closely willknow he is only good as a finishe. Not a lot of grey matter between the ears and when it comes to making decisions on the rugby field, he just doesn't cut it.
His younger brother was actually a better player eve though he didn't have the raw speed of Brett and that is all Brett had - speed.

 

[Lee Grant]

You're right whispers. I mentioned him a bit when he was a schoolboy but there was always that doubt that he didn't have the rugby nous to go with his speed, which I mentioned at the time.

Unfortunately this was confirmed in the ARC, and he didn't look that fast then as he was at school either.

 

[spectator]

Couldn't see any hookers available?

Mark Crick

What about Ole Avei? Isn't he in NZ somewhere?

 

[fatprop]

There ain't many in that list that you would want back, sure Elsom & Latham, most of the rest are either old, broken or just not up to it.