Australia's 5th team

[Lindommer]

Couldn't see any hookers available?

Mark Crick

What about Ole Avei? Isn't he in NZ somewhere?

Listed in the Chiefs squad for next year. Bit hard to claim him as an Oz, he was born in NZ.

 

[Sully]

Never stopped us before. Or them for that matter

 

[Lee Grant]

There ain't many in that list that you would want back, sure Elsom & Latham, most of the rest are either old, broken or just not up to it.

Disagree - if we are talking about manning a 5th Super team and using the players overseas now as an indication of what standard of player would be available a few years from now when, notionally, a 5th team would want them. We are not talking about manning a S14 team full of Wallaby candidates.

I think the equivalents of the following players would be good enough to start in a 5th team. I have tried to leave out players who are passed it, legends like Gregan, Larkham and Latham who would never be available, and players who would be over there anyway, but have included players who have started in super rugby recently or have started in the HC, ML, GP or Top 14 recently.

The list pays no regard to what positions the players play and includes international players like Nathan Hines and Dan Parks who arguably would not have gone offshore had there been a 5th team.

Starters
Rodney Blake Bayonne Fra
Manny Edmonds Bayonne Fra
Mark Gasnier Stade Francais Fra
Craig Gower Bayonne Fra
Sam Harris in Japan Jap
Daniel Heenan Sanyo Jap
Matt Henjak Toulon Fra
Peter Hewat London Irish Eng
Jim Hilgendorf Kintetsu Jap
Nathan Hines Perpignan Fra
Ben Jacobs Saracens Eng
Brock James Clermont Fra
Mafi Kefu Toulon Fra
Michael Lipman Bath Eng
David Lyons Llanelli Scarlets Wales
Lachlan Mitchell Wasps Eng
Dan Parks Glasgow Sco
Luke Rooney Toulon Fra
Rory Sidey Gwent Dragons Wales
Paul Warwick Munster Ire

Backups
Shaun Berne Bath Eng
Nic Berry Racing Paris Fra
Andrew Brown Secom Jap
Al Campbell Montpellier Fra
Brent Cockbain Sale Eng
Ben Coutts Mont de Marsan Fra
Luke Doherty Kyuden Voltex Jap
Tim Donnelly Connacht Ire
Mike Hercus IBM Big Blue Jap
Lloyd Johansson Viadana Ita
Steve Kefu Castres Fra
Lachlan MacKay Brive Fra
Chris Malone Harlequins Eng
Radike Samo Yokogawa Jap
Chris Siale Tarbes Fra
Jone Tawake Secom Jap
Lei Tomiki Castres Fra
Cameron Treloar Calvisano Ita
Elia Tuqiri Sanyo Jap
Adam Wallace-Harrison Kobe Steel Jap
Christian Warner Roma Ita
Brendan Williams Treviso Ita
Marty Wilson Cambridge Eng


That's over 40 players now who have the right profile for a 5th S14 team who may not have gone overseas if we had 5 teams when they made their decision to go offshore.

Boil that down to 12 out of a matchday 22 because there are duplicates of players for the same position, and there are too many backs on the list, and take time forward a few years with the names different, and it's not too far fetched to say the assumption of my earlier post would not be too far off the mark if enough lead time is given.

 

[formeropenside]

Lee, you overlook that Blake need not have left - the Reds wanted to keep him. He left for the money, as have other starters. Its not all about no spots in a 5th team environment.

 

[Lee Grant]

OK take him out - but do you reckon we could get 12 equivalents of these guys to start in a 5th Super team down the track?

 

[RugbyReg]

12?

Nic Berry
Andrew Brown
Al Campbell
Luke Doherty
Tim Donnelly
Manny Edmonds
Andrew Farley
Mark Gasnier
Craig Gower
Daniel Heenan
Matt Henjak
Peter Hewat
Jim Hilgendorf
Ben Jacobs
Brock James
Lloyd Johansson
Lachlan MacKay
Tom McVerry
Lachlan Mitchell
Ed O'Donoghue
Luke Rooney
Chris Siale
Jone Tawake
Lei Tomiki
Adam Wallace-Harrison
Paul Warwick
Marty Wilson

 

[Lee Grant]

Yeah 12 as per my earlier post to take care of objections such as the one about Blake.

I postulated that a 5th team would be able to get 12 players of a matchday 22 from players who would not have gone in the first place.

In reality it would be tough because players would be making decisions to go overseas right up until a 5th team is nominated for Oz and they may accept a bird in the hand even then. The full benefit of players not going offshore won't be realised until the 5th team has kicked in for a while methinks.

Still saying 12 out of a likely 40 of the present players who have the right playing profile is more realistic than saying most of them wouldn't have gone.

 

[RugbyReg]

In saying all that money will be a factor. Perhaps the collective bargaining agreement being negotiated can give more money to S14/15 players rather than the Wallabies? Raise the 'maximum salary' bar and perhaps the minimum?

 

[Lindommer]

player club country
Michael Aldridge Roma Ita
Tim Atkinson Kyuden Voltex Jap
Fotu Auelua Toulon Fra
Greg Barden Bristol Eng
Mark Bartholomeusz Petrarca Ita
Shaun Berne Bath Eng
Nic Berry Racing Paris Fra
Liam Bibo Connacht Ire
Rodney Blake Bayonne Fra
Tim Bowker Albi Fra
Andrew Brown Secom Jap
Jon Burnett Oxford Eng
Al Campbell Montpellier Fra
Tim Clark Limoges Fra
Brent Cockbain Sale Eng
Sam Cordingley Grenoble Fra
Tom Court Ulster Ire
Ben Coutts Mont de Marsan Fra
Mark Crick Potomac USA
Tim Curran Secom Jap
Paul Dearlove Pau Fra
Luke Doherty Kyuden Voltex Jap
Tim Donnelly Connacht Ire
Shane Drahm Kubota Jap
Clint Eadie Bressane Fra
Manny Edmonds Bayonne Fra
Rocky Elsom Leinster Ire
Andrew Farley Connacht Ire
Doug Fletcher Petrarca Ita
Mark Gasnier Stade Francais Fra
Mark Gilbride Treviso Ita
Craig Gower Bayonne Fra
James Greenwood Waterloo Eng
George Gregan Suntory Jap
Nathan Grey Kyuden Voltex Jap
Wade Grintell Stade Aurillac Fra
Dwayne Haare Bayonne Fra
Sam Harris Honda Jap
Justin Harrison Bath Eng
Daniel Heenan Sanyo Jap
Matt Henjak Toulon Fra
Mike Hercus IBM Big Blue Jap
Peter Hewat London Irish Eng
Drew Hickey Kubota Jap
Jim Hilgendorf Kintetsu Jap
Nathan Hines Perpignan Fra
Jack Isaac Biarritz Fra
Ben Jacobs Saracens Eng
Brock James Clermont Fra
Lloyd Johansson Viadana Ita
Matthew Jolly Racing Paris Fra
Mafileo Kefu Toulon Fra
Steve Kefu Castres Fra
Toutai Kefu Kubota Jap
Stephen Larkham Ricoh Jap
Chris Latham Worcester Eng
Tim LeNevez NTT Jap
Michael Lipman Bath Eng
David Lyons Llanelli Scarlets Wal
Damian McInally Kubota Jap
Lachlan MacKay Brive Fra
Luke McLean Calvisano Ita
Tom McVerry Kyuden Voltex Jap
Winston Mafi Calvisano Ita
Chris Malone Harlequins Eng
Peter Miller Kyuden Voltex Jap
Lachlan Mitchell Wasps Eng
Jye Mullane Beziers Fra
Darren Murphy NTT Jap
Ryan Nicholas Suntory Jap
Corey Niwa Colomiers Fra
Ed O'Donoghue Ulster Ire
Todd Ollivier Roma Ita
Dan Parks Glasgow Sco
Cameron Pither Honda Jap
Justin Purll Calvisano Ita
Luke Rooney Toulon Fra
Radike Samo Yokogawa Jap
Clinton Schifcofske Ulster Ire
Chris Siale Tarbes Fra
Rory Sidey Gwent Dragons Wal
Christopher Schmidt Nice Fra
Graydon Staniforth Stade Aurillac Fra
Nigel Staniforth Bressane Fra
Brett Stapleton Coca-Cola West Jap
Marc Stcherbina Gwent Dragons Wal
Marc Sweeney Newbury Eng
Jone Tawake Secom Jap
Lei Tomiki Castres Fra
Cameron Treloar Calvisano Ita
Elia Tuqiri Sanyo Jap
Dan Vickerman Cambridge Eng
Alex Walker Saracens Eng
Adam Wallace-Harrison Kobe Steel Jap
Christian Warner Roma Ita
Paul Warwick Munster Ire
Chris Whitaker Leinster Ire
Brendan Williams Treviso Ita
Joel Wilson Ricoh Jap
Marty Wilson Cambridge Eng
Matt Windle Secom Jap

Listed above are 95 101 Australian rugby players plying their trade in Europe and Japan (and one poor bastard in Septica). On that list there are 13 ineligible to play for Oz: Bibo, Cockbain, Court, Crick, Drahm, Farley, Hercus, Hilgendorf, Hines, Lipman, McLean, Nicholas & Parks. 15, add Barden and O'Donoghue. Of the remaining 84 players some are too old and a lot aren't (and never will be) good enough. But there are enough quality players here to form the core of a fifth Australian Super franchise; I've chosen 28:

Shaun Berne Bath Eng
Nic Berry Racing Paris Fra
Rodney Blake Bayonne Fra
Andrew Brown Secom Jap
Al Campbell Montpellier Fra
Tim Clark Limoges Fra
Ben Coutts Mont de Marsan Fra
Manny Edmonds Bayonne Fra
Rocky Elsom Leinster Ire
Mark Gasnier Stade Francais Fra
Matt Henjak Toulon Fra
Peter Hewat London Irish Eng
Brock James Clermont Fra
Lloyd Johansson Viadana Ita
Toutai Kefu Kubota Jap
Chris Latham Worcester Eng
David Lyons Llanelli Scarlets Wal
Chris Malone Harlequins Eng
Lachlan Mitchell Wasps Eng
Clinton Schifcofske Ulster Ire
Chris Siale Tarbes Fra
Rory Sidey Gwent Dragons Wal
Jone Tawake Secom Jap
Lei Tomiki Castres Fra
Cameron Treloar Calvisano Ita
Elia Tuqiri Sanyo Jap
Dan Vickerman Cambridge Eng
Adam Wallace-Harrison Kobe Steel Jap

Bit short on hookers so there's an opportunity for Freier with a starting role. There are quite a few players on my list who aren't long term prospects but would add valuable experience to a new team. Whether those older players would want to subject themselves to the rigours of Super rugby again, especially the travel, is another matter. The travel involved in Super rugby is a major concern; I reckon it's got the longest distances to travel of any sporting competition on earth. Cape Town to Auckland is nearly twice the distance from St Petersburg to Vladivostock in the Russian soccer competition. Any restructuring of the Super competition should take take great care to ensure travel is not increased, if anything it should be reduced.

The other four Oz Super teams should contribute two senior and two academy/rookie players each to make up a possible squad of 44 to start with. Anyone with any connection to Melbourne (Ioane, Johansson, McKenzie as coach) should be targeted. Take out those who don't fancy Melbourne, add in a few good club players, eg. McGann from Easts, and there's a squad of 33.

Edited.

 

[formeropenside]

Lindommer, agreed, but a lot of those players chose to leave as established or up and coming players: Berry, Blake and Andrew Brown, Hewat, Schif, David Lyons. And why would Chris Latham come back after the ARU let him go? If he did, why should he go to a 5th team and not back to Qld? T.Kefu? Isn't he 40 by now?

I dont see a lot of players coming back to play Super rugby, and there are not a lot of guys who could not get a run for a current side as a Wallaby prospect if they seriously wanted to return.

As to other teams contributing players: Qld gave at the office when the Farce were created out of whole cloth.

We need a 3rd tier competition, not a 5th team.

 

[Scotty]

Former,

There isn't any money for a 3rd tier competition. The only way I'd support a domestic competion is if the S14 turned into a Heinekin cup type deal, and thus was greatly reduced. This would allow the Oz or combined Oz/NZ comp to run for at least 25 weeks.

We should only be supporting one club/province team each, not a S14 franchise and a 3rd tier club team. This would only serve to dilute the fans' money and reduce the branding of the individual teams, thus having a knock on effect of capturing less of the market.

We have to look at other successful sports comps - copying what South Africa and NZ do for rugby is not the way forward for Australia.

 

[TOCC]

hey Lindommer, Liam Bibo is elegible for Australia

he hasnt represented Ireland in any of the rep sides yet

 

[Lindommer]

I think Tom Court has now played Ireland A? Not sure about Andrew Farley, but I thought he may have as well. Thommo?

in fact I think Liam Bibo may have as well?

Just going on what Noddy said earlier. He's not often wrong.

Check this website: http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s505.htm?966,7833126 Of course this article doesn't say he's ineligible to play for Australia, just that he has an Irish passport. So I suppose it's up to him to decide which way he goes. Has he given us a clue by moving from a Super team to Connacht?

 

[RugbyReg]

I think Tom Court has now played Ireland A? Not sure about Andrew Farley, but I thought he may have as well. Thommo?

in fact I think Liam Bibo may have as well?

Just going on what Noddy said earlier. He's not often wrong.

Check this website: http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s505.htm?966,7833126 Of course this article doesn't say he's ineligible to play for Australia, just that he has an Irish passport. So I suppose it's up to him to decide which way he goes. Has he given us a clue by moving from a Super team to Connacht?

I'm probably wrong on this occasion, a recent profile of his states:

Name: Liam Bibo
Date of Birth: 21/03/1986
Place of Birth: Brisbane, Australia
Position: wing/ centre/fullback
Height: 6'0"
Weight: 88kg
Previous Clubs: Sunnybank, Queensland Reds
International Representation (all levels): Australia Schoolboys, U19, U21
When joined Connacht: 2007

so no Irish representation yet.

 

[TOCC]

i know liam personally, although havent really stayed in touch since he has being in Ireland..

He went with the Irish passport because it would help him with the European rugby teams, foreigner rules etc.

His ultimate goal is to play for Australia, but i think that is unlikely, whilst a good player he doesnt set the world on fire.

If the chance to represent Ireland comes up he will probably take it, his quite injury prone and his main attribute at junior and schoolboy level was his size and speed, his not big in comparison to other players any more and his not as fast as he once was.

He has added some other bows to his string though, his quite a good kicker, can kick goals and has a long kick as well.

In 2006 he went down to a 2 week training camp with the Brumbies hoping to get a contract but they didnt take him.

 

[Lindommer]

And why would Chris Latham come back after the ARU let him go? If he did, why should he go to a 5th team and not back to Qld?

Why, indeed? One could well ask why he wouldn't want to come home to New South Wales. :fishing :fishing :fishing

 

[Ash]

And why would Chris Latham come back after the ARU let him go? If he did, why should he go to a 5th team and not back to Qld?

Why, indeed? One could well ask why he woudn't want to come home to New South Wales. :fishing :fishing :fishing

One could, if one had long enough to sit down and listen to a very very long lecture

 

[Lindommer]

Which will be delivered over a beer (or five) next Monday evening. :clown :clown :clown

 

[Lindommer]

There are 98 Oz rugby players (and 19 coaches) plying their trade oveseas.
Can we get that list to 100?

 

[Spook]

Having watched Latho in the GP, I think the ARU did the right thing. He didn't have a great S14 either. He is just getting older...