Sideline Eye
Darby Loudon (17)
Do we know who is in the NSW U20s training squad?
Australian Schoolboys 2014
- Thread starter TheKing
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Do we know who is in the NSW U20s training squad?
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
The list is not published anywhere to the best of my knowledge, and this is probably not the right thread to discuss in detail.
I'd expect all those from last year's U20 Team who were Under 19 then will be in there, as well as last years school leavers who attended 2014 trials but were not selected in the state team (most but not all of these would have been at 2013 National Schoolboys), and finally, as works in progress, there will most likely be the successful graduates from the Waratah U18 development squad (the Koala Club) along with some bolters from those at 2014 National Schoolboys tournament .
If Rappy (NSW U20 Head Coach) stays on message, there will also be an invitation sent out to all clubs asking them to send anyone they think are worthy enough to join the training and selection process.
They will start with a very large squad (50-60) and gradually whittle that down to the 23 needed for the National U20 Tournament which I hear will again be in Canberra and held from March 20 - 25 2014.
I'd expect serious training to start in November-ish after School and Uni exams but they probably already have some form of informal squad sessions underway.
QLD, ACT and WA are probably doing something similar.
I'd expect all those from last year's U20 Team who were Under 19 then will be in there, as well as last years school leavers who attended 2014 trials but were not selected in the state team (most but not all of these would have been at 2013 National Schoolboys), and finally, as works in progress, there will most likely be the successful graduates from the Waratah U18 development squad (the Koala Club) along with some bolters from those at 2014 National Schoolboys tournament .
If Rappy (NSW U20 Head Coach) stays on message, there will also be an invitation sent out to all clubs asking them to send anyone they think are worthy enough to join the training and selection process.
They will start with a very large squad (50-60) and gradually whittle that down to the 23 needed for the National U20 Tournament which I hear will again be in Canberra and held from March 20 - 25 2014.
I'd expect serious training to start in November-ish after School and Uni exams but they probably already have some form of informal squad sessions underway.
QLD, ACT and WA are probably doing something similar.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Surely the reality of every Australian Schoolboys team is that it will produce at least one Wallaby and a bunch of Super Rugby players.
One of the big positives of the NRC is there are a bunch of names from 2010, 2011 and 2012 getting a run who wouldn't be playing rugby at that level otherwise.
One of the big positives of the NRC is there are a bunch of names from 2010, 2011 and 2012 getting a run who wouldn't be playing rugby at that level otherwise.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
There was no published list either last year at this time; just the odd list of teams that played in trial games early in 2014 though come to think of it: I may have got them at the ground. Players came and went at this time of the year.
The Waratahs have already put an Under 19s team on the park as an NRC curtain-raiser at Brookvale - and a precursor for next year. They played an Emerging Rays team.
Most of them were Colts but there were a couple of current schoolboys not connected with the big rugby schools.
One hopes that becomes a regular practice in future years in Sydney NRC games - and ditto for elsewhere.
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Newbie
Bill McLean (32)
This year's NSW U/20 selections adopted a back to the future sought of approach IMO; and quite frankly, a breath of fresh air! NSWRU wanted an U/20 team that would deliver, and deliver it did!
Many, many moons ago my 'better half's' cousin was selected, in what was then, the NSW Colts (aka U/21's)! It was always my understanding that he 'the Cousin' was not originally on the radar of NSW selectors, however he was informally put forward under a strong recommendation from his then club coach.
What was even more remarkable was this 'Cousin' went on to play for the Oz Colts for two years and even had a brief stint in the Oz sevens team. But for his coach maybe this 'Cousin' might not have been spotted (maybe he would of - its all suppossition), however the point I am trying to make is this!
NSWRU has ultimately put its faith in NSW colts coaches, people who know their respective charges better than any selector, and for mine it seems to have worked!
Many, many moons ago my 'better half's' cousin was selected, in what was then, the NSW Colts (aka U/21's)! It was always my understanding that he 'the Cousin' was not originally on the radar of NSW selectors, however he was informally put forward under a strong recommendation from his then club coach.
What was even more remarkable was this 'Cousin' went on to play for the Oz Colts for two years and even had a brief stint in the Oz sevens team. But for his coach maybe this 'Cousin' might not have been spotted (maybe he would of - its all suppossition), however the point I am trying to make is this!
NSWRU has ultimately put its faith in NSW colts coaches, people who know their respective charges better than any selector, and for mine it seems to have worked!
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
^^^^^^^^^^^
Well said Newbie.
NSW is doing something right in this area and the catalyst is the Aussie Under 20s championships. No doubt others are doing what NSW does.
With the scouting of Kellaher, the engine of Cheika and the later appoinment of NSW U20 coach Rapp, who is at at lot of schools' games, including the Waratahs Cup and Shield, there's a good coverage and good assessment of young players for the NSW team.
The trick is to get more young players in Colts - and if they get there, the new system, driven by the goal of the Under 20s nationals, should work as well as any system can (in this country at least) with the resources available.
But as HJ indicated - this should be discussed in the 2015 Under 20's thread.
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Well said Newbie.
NSW is doing something right in this area and the catalyst is the Aussie Under 20s championships. No doubt others are doing what NSW does.
With the scouting of Kellaher, the engine of Cheika and the later appoinment of NSW U20 coach Rapp, who is at at lot of schools' games, including the Waratahs Cup and Shield, there's a good coverage and good assessment of young players for the NSW team.
The trick is to get more young players in Colts - and if they get there, the new system, driven by the goal of the Under 20s nationals, should work as well as any system can (in this country at least) with the resources available.
But as HJ indicated - this should be discussed in the 2015 Under 20's thread.
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I'd just repost in that thread. These posts have value here as well.
I don't read the overwhelming majority of schoolboy threads so I would have missed them if they weren't posted here.
I don't read the overwhelming majority of schoolboy threads so I would have missed them if they weren't posted here.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Relevant posts have been "copied" to the 2015 Jnr RWC Thread.
Not quite as easy to move things to an existing thread.
Easier to just use the "Reply" functionality. Achieves the same effect, more or less.
Not quite as easy to move things to an existing thread.
Easier to just use the "Reply" functionality. Achieves the same effect, more or less.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Some adjustments to the figures to account for names being spelt differently in the reference materials, and a double check of some of the CV’s.
Interesting that the % haven’t changed all that much, but some new trends have been identified.
7 League (+ 3 League converts who were Schoolboys)
Andrew Walker
Wendell Sailor
Lote Tuqiri
Berrick Barnes
Timana Tahu
Cooper Vuna
Israel Folau
League Converts (Who made Schoolboys)
Mat Rogers
Ryan Cross
Joe Tomane
12 Imports
Enrique "Topo" Rodriguez - Puma
Acura Niuqila - Fiji
Viliami "Willie" Ofahengaue - NZ Schoolboy (NZ Govt Rejected)
Ilie Tabua Tamanivalu - Fiji
Patricio Noriega - Puma
Tiaan Strauss - Springbok
Daniel Vickerman - SAF U21
Clyde Rathbone - SAF U21
Radike Samo - Fiji U19
Sekope Kepu - NZL U21
Sitaleki Timani - Tonga Schoolboy
Mike Harris - NZL ITM Cup
7 Aust A only
Matt Giteau
Julian Huxley
Will Genia
Huia Edmonds
Luke Morahan
Michael Hooper
Jesse Mogg
Since ASRU Started
No of Wallabies since ASRU started = 338
Former Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 142 (42%) [3 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 196 (58%) [7 were League Converts, 12 did not attend School in Australia = Import]
No of Wallabies since ASRU started = 338
Former Schoolboy = 135 (40%) [3 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy = 203 (60%) [7 were League Converts, 12 did not attend School in Australia = Import, Represented Aust A = 7]
Excluding Imports (12) and League Converts (7) from the sample
No of Wallabies since ASRU started = 319
Former Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 142 (45%) [3 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 177 (55%)
Former Schoolboy = 135 (42%) [3 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy = 184 (58%) [Represented Aust A = 7
Last Decade only (since 2004 - Clyde Rathbone)
4 League (+ 2 League converts who were Schoolboys)
Berrick Barnes
Timana Tahu
Cooper Vuna
Israel Folau
League Converts (Who made Schoolboys)
Ryan Cross
Joe Tomane
5 Imports
Clyde Rathbone - SAF U21
Radike Samo - Fiji U19
Sekope Kepu - NZL U21
Sitaleki Timani - Tonga Schoolboy
Mike Harris - NZL ITM Cup
6 Aust A only
Julian Huxley
Will Genia
Huia Edmonds
Luke Morahan
Michael Hooper
Jesse Mogg
30 Wallaby Bolters since 2004 who were not Schoolboys, Schoolboys A, Import, or League
Nic Henderson
Mark Chisholm
Stephen Hoiles
Stephen Moore
Adam Ashley-Cooper
Al Kanaar
Greg Holmes
Scott Fava
David Fitter
Tai McIsaac
Cameron Shepherd
Wycliff Palu
Brett Sheehan
Sam Norton-Knight
James Horwill
Luke Burgess
Ben Alexander
Peter Kimlin
Salesi Ma'afu
Matt Hodgson
Scott Higginbotham
Nick Phipps
Kane Douglas
Nick Cummins
Tevita Kuridrani
Scott Fardy
Nic White
Bernard Foley
Sam Carter
Will Skelton
No of Wallabies in Last Decade= 96
Former Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 57 (59%) [2 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 39 (41%) [4 were League Converts, 5 did not attend School in Australia = Import]
No of Wallabies in Last Decade = 96
Former Schoolboy = 51 (53%) [2 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy = 45 (47%) [4 were League Converts, 5 did not attend School in Australia = Import, Represented Aust A = 6]
Excluding Imports (5) and League Converts (4) from the sample
No of Wallabies since 2004 = 96
Former Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 57 (66%) [2 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy/Schoolboy A = 30 (34%)
Former Schoolboy = 51 (59%) [2 became League Converts]
Non Schoolboy = 36 (41%) [Represented Aust A = 6]
Count of ASRU Representatives
Since Inception until the end of 2013, 1258 players have represented Australian Schoolboys or Australian Schoolboys A.
The most recent Wallabies come from the 2009 cohort (Scott Sio, Liam Gill, and Chris Feauai-Sautia). From Inception until the end of 2009, 1069 Players have represented Australian Schoolboys or Australian Schoolboys A. Of those 1069 players in “Wallaby Window”, 142 (13%) have gone on to represent the Wallabies.
During the decade 2000-2009 (incl), 397 Players have represented Australian Schoolboys or Australian Schoolboys A. Of those 397 players in “Wallaby Window” since 2000, 52 (13%) have gone on to represent the Wallabies.
Some notable Wallabies NOT from a Schoolboy Rep Pedigree:
Old Timers
Stan Pilecki
Andrew Slack
Chris Handy
Roger Gould
David Campese
Steve Cutler
Nick Farr-Jones
Jeff Miller
Greg Martin
Phil Kearns
Peter FitzSimons
Paul Carozza
Ewen McKenzie
The Modern Era
John Eales
Owen Finegan
George Gregan
Stephen Larkham
Chris Latham
Stirling Mortlock
Alastair Baxter
Stephen Moore
Adam Ashley-Cooper
Wycliff Palu
James Horwill
Nick Phipps
Nick Cummins
Bernard Foley
Will Skelton
So what does this tell us:
1. Aust Schoolboy/Schoolboy A selection is a very poor indicator that the lad will become a Wallaby.
2. In recent times, more Wallabies have been selected who were NOT Aust Schoolboy/SchoolboyA representatives than those who were.
3. The pendulum is swinging towards being a product of the "Pathway" as controlled by various Clipboard wielding Traffic Controllers.
Cream rises to the surface, and there is every reason to believe that a player not selected for Aust Schoolboys will do as well in the future as those selected, provided they keep applying themselves, maintain their fitness, and have been on a clipboard somewhere, sometime.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
^^^^^some work in there HJ.
Well done.
Well done.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
A couple of copy and pastes into a spreadsheet and Bob's your uncle, if you throw a couple of filters, sorts and formulas in there. You can appear to have done a swag of work for not much work if you have "clean" and well organised data.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Terrific job HJ - a lot of work went into that although I believe you missed out a comma and a full stop.
Good findings too HJ, but it won't stop comments that young players are disadvantaged if they are not chosen for Aus Schools.
And it won't stop comments that because Wallabies who didn't play for Aus Schools are chosen now, it proves that their non-selection for Schools in the past was flawed.
Colts recruiters know who the good schoolies are, regardless of Schools' selection, and if they don't, they shouldn't be doing it.
The Under 20s state honchos know who the good schoolies are too - and of course, the best Colts.
All give and take a few errors.
HJ - how did your findings compare to that in the pdf thingo you listed in one of your earlier posts ??
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Good findings too HJ, but it won't stop comments that young players are disadvantaged if they are not chosen for Aus Schools.
And it won't stop comments that because Wallabies who didn't play for Aus Schools are chosen now, it proves that their non-selection for Schools in the past was flawed.
Colts recruiters know who the good schoolies are, regardless of Schools' selection, and if they don't, they shouldn't be doing it.
The Under 20s state honchos know who the good schoolies are too - and of course, the best Colts.
All give and take a few errors.
HJ - how did your findings compare to that in the pdf thingo you listed in one of your earlier posts ??
.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Missing full stops and commas, - meh. Grammar is not one of my strong points. I even referred to the CAS School in Wahroonga as "Knox College" once, instead of "Knox Grammar".
The pdf thingy from Brave and Game was the prime reference for the Roster of Schoolboy and Aust A representatives.
I didn't check how accurate any listing on the Aust Schools web site was in terms of Wallaby representation. The Brave and Game list of Aust A/Aust Schools was compared directly against the Wallaby List in Wikipedia.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Oh that pdf thingy.
It has been a while since i read that in detail, but his findings are not significantly different from mine. Funny that, because he has used pretty much the same data sources.
The difference is that Barkell is working towards a PhD (IIRC) using data like this and the occasional paper that he is getting published by Sydney Uni, and I am just wanging on here to provide the peanut gallery with some facts upon which to recalibrate and reconsider perceptions and prejudices.
One point to note is that the product from the recent changes (last 4-6 years) to the junior development model (NGS and JGS, Club and District academies from the old NTS only model) haven't worked their way to the Wallaby level yet, so it is reading chicken entrails to make any assessment as to how effective they have been with regard producing Wob quality players.
It has been a while since i read that in detail, but his findings are not significantly different from mine. Funny that, because he has used pretty much the same data sources.
The difference is that Barkell is working towards a PhD (IIRC) using data like this and the occasional paper that he is getting published by Sydney Uni, and I am just wanging on here to provide the peanut gallery with some facts upon which to recalibrate and reconsider perceptions and prejudices.
One point to note is that the product from the recent changes (last 4-6 years) to the junior development model (NGS and JGS, Club and District academies from the old NTS only model) haven't worked their way to the Wallaby level yet, so it is reading chicken entrails to make any assessment as to how effective they have been with regard producing Wob quality players.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I thought Barkell had a much lower conversion rate than you HJ.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
^^^ Different time periods constraining the samples.
Most of his data sets are 1973 - 2008 but he has 12.5% of schoolboys making Wallaby Caps. My data is 1973 - 2009 and it has 13% and in so far as any statistics* are concerned that is close enough as sh!t is to swearing for this little black duck.
"Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics". B Disraeli.
Most of his data sets are 1973 - 2008 but he has 12.5% of schoolboys making Wallaby Caps. My data is 1973 - 2009 and it has 13% and in so far as any statistics* are concerned that is close enough as sh!t is to swearing for this little black duck.
"Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics". B Disraeli.
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