Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I'll cut ISA some slack - they have a statewide clientele. I thought you were referring to the first choice 10 who was only good enough for AAGPS IIs!
Australian Schoolboys 2014
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Natal shark
Peter Burge (5)
I agree but so the front row don't need technique it's the back 5 job to get them going forward last time I looked a decent front row sets the scene and the back 5 have to back them up but if your front rows not getting hit on with the help of the back 5 because of technique everything falls apart . Look at the wallabies scrum they struggle a lot because front row is all about technique and been crafty. At the end of the day it's a 8 man scrum all need to work together
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Reticent as I am to argue the toss about scrums with someone apparently from Seth Efrika it seems to me that
- Australians know a lot more about shit scrums than you guys
- the tight head 2nd row was packing above the THP's bum: now that is never going to work and I struggle to believe that he developed the technique just before kick off.
- The #8 was meerkatting as soon as the packs engaged - worse in fact than Higgers last night when you could hear some poor aussie bastard screaming "stay on, Stay on".
- Thats why I doubt the #8 will ever threaten Karl Hayman's crown as one of the most difficult human beings to scrum against.
Natal shark
Peter Burge (5)
To true I am a Seth African as u put it but all good just grow up with been drummed into about scrummaging and yes the second rowers have to get themselves properly set behind there front rowers and everything is on timing in a scrum but if u have a Karl Hayman or Os Du randt it helps a lot
Natal shark
Peter Burge (5)
Yeah it doesn't help with your #8 been a meerkat too
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Yeah, that one was not wanted by his association, but his state selectors saw some merit in him.
In 2013, IIRC Andrew Deegan also started in AAGPS II's, as did Jack McCalman (2013 Australian Schoolboys Captain).
As first witness for the prosecution, I call Eric Rush's Dad* to the stand.... ... ...
* For the benefit of new readers, another of my favourite stories:
As @Brainstrust said on another thread:
If you have heard Eric Rush the former All Black speak he tells a great story about when he was growing up. He always trialled but never got picked. His father would always say "Don't worry because its just one blokes opinion, maybe the next guy will think differently". When he excitedly phoned his father to tell him he had been selected for the All Blacks, his father congratulated him, but reminded him "it's just one blokes opinion. Don't get a big head, because the next bloke may not like you."
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
After watching the ABs v Boks replay and the the Wallabies v Pumas match yesterday, I was struck yet again by how much better the AB and Bok players were at the basic skills of the game. Catching, passing, scrummaging etc. These are things which are learnt/not learnt much earlier in one's life.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I don't think we should get our knickers in a knot about not being able to nominate a lot of 2014 schoolboys who will be future Wallabies based on play for Oz Schools.
And neither should we think in the future that a Wallaby, who wasn't chosen for Aus Schools this year, was overlooked because of incompetence by the selectors.
As for the first matter: there were three injured players who were originally named who were the strongest candidates, but couldn't tour.
Also on the first matter: it is difficult to judge how the lads will progress.
To quote myself (but change the spelling):
It would have been a brave person to declare in 2005 that anybody but the obvious Pocock and Beale (and maybe Turner) would be Wallabies.
In 2006 (before the rise of Tapuai and Horne a year later) the same goes for Beale and Cooper.
It sounds easy to identify shoolboys who are going to be Wallabies, but it is not, especially in the forwards.
(PS - On Simmons - he was obviously good but a bit of a gentle giant in my eyes.)
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And neither should we think in the future that a Wallaby, who wasn't chosen for Aus Schools this year, was overlooked because of incompetence by the selectors.
As for the first matter: there were three injured players who were originally named who were the strongest candidates, but couldn't tour.
Also on the first matter: it is difficult to judge how the lads will progress.
To quote myself (but change the spelling):
It would have been a brave person to declare in 2005 that anybody but the obvious Pocock and Beale (and maybe Turner) would be Wallabies.
In 2006 (before the rise of Tapuai and Horne a year later) the same goes for Beale and Cooper.
It sounds easy to identify shoolboys who are going to be Wallabies, but it is not, especially in the forwards.
(PS - On Simmons - he was obviously good but a bit of a gentle giant in my eyes.)
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Agree Lee. It's a bit much to suggest that the selectors have 'failed' if only 5 go on to bigger and better things.
These kids are only 16, 17 or 18. They have so much maturing to do, physically and mentally. The selectors aren't geneticists, they don't know ultimately who will progress and who won't. This goes for blokes both inside and outside the playing squad.
The job description of the selectors isn't to pick the team that will play in the 2019 World Cup, it is to play NZ later that year. I don't know you can blame them if people don't develop further in the years to come.
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These kids are only 16, 17 or 18. They have so much maturing to do, physically and mentally. The selectors aren't geneticists, they don't know ultimately who will progress and who won't. This goes for blokes both inside and outside the playing squad.
The job description of the selectors isn't to pick the team that will play in the 2019 World Cup, it is to play NZ later that year. I don't know you can blame them if people don't develop further in the years to come.
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Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Here's some figures prepared earlier:
Australian Schoolboys started in 1969.
The first to make Wallabies was Russell Fairfax in 1971.
Fairfax was Wallaby #546. Jesse Mogg is the Wob # 869 (according to wiki), but Chris F-Sautia has debuted since then so he is #870.
Since 1971 there have been 324 Wallabies selected.
Chris F-Sautia and Liam Gill were Schoolboys in 2009. The 2010 onwards schoolboys reps are too young to be counted in this analysis.
Between 1969 and 2009 (inclusive), there have been 1066 boys represent Australia A or Australia Schoolboys.
Of these 1066, only 157 have gone on to be a Wallaby (14%).
Conversely of the 324 new Wallabies since 1969, 167 did NOT make Australia Schoolboys, or Australia A Schoolboys (51%).
So what does this tell us:
1. Aust Schoolboy/Schoolboy A selection is a very poor indicator that the lad will become a Wallaby.
2. In recent times, more Wallabies have been selected who were NOT Aust Schoolboy/SchoolboyA representatives than those who were.
Cream rises to the surface, and there is every reason to believe that a player not selected for Aust Schoolboys will do as well in the future as those selected provided they keep applying themselves, and maintain their fitness.
John Eales first rep team was the Aust Under 21's (IIRC).
Australian Schoolboys started in 1969.
The first to make Wallabies was Russell Fairfax in 1971.
Fairfax was Wallaby #546. Jesse Mogg is the Wob # 869 (according to wiki), but Chris F-Sautia has debuted since then so he is #870.
Since 1971 there have been 324 Wallabies selected.
Chris F-Sautia and Liam Gill were Schoolboys in 2009. The 2010 onwards schoolboys reps are too young to be counted in this analysis.
Between 1969 and 2009 (inclusive), there have been 1066 boys represent Australia A or Australia Schoolboys.
Of these 1066, only 157 have gone on to be a Wallaby (14%).
Conversely of the 324 new Wallabies since 1969, 167 did NOT make Australia Schoolboys, or Australia A Schoolboys (51%).
So what does this tell us:
1. Aust Schoolboy/Schoolboy A selection is a very poor indicator that the lad will become a Wallaby.
2. In recent times, more Wallabies have been selected who were NOT Aust Schoolboy/SchoolboyA representatives than those who were.
Cream rises to the surface, and there is every reason to believe that a player not selected for Aust Schoolboys will do as well in the future as those selected provided they keep applying themselves, and maintain their fitness.
John Eales first rep team was the Aust Under 21's (IIRC).
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
^^^Not ot forget that in some cases, boys who would have been selected for Aust/Aust A schoolboys but were unavailable because of injury, might have been subsequently selected for the Wallabies. For example 3 boys who would have started Saturday were unavailable through injury.
But your general point is accurate.
But your general point is accurate.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
My concern is that the skill difference at 18 between NZ and oz is not that great but by 20 it's huge and then arguably closes a bit after that but remain an issue for us
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Big arse I would like to see the stats from the last 10 years.
I'm sure Schoolboy reps would have a much heavier representation.
It's much harder to get a gig in 2014 without a Schoolboy cv,than it was in the 70's & 80's.
Even the highly heralded Tahs 20's squad,seems to have a bias towards Schoolboy rock stars.
One kid in particular last year appeared to be culled solely on his resume.
I'm sure Schoolboy reps would have a much heavier representation.
It's much harder to get a gig in 2014 without a Schoolboy cv,than it was in the 70's & 80's.
Even the highly heralded Tahs 20's squad,seems to have a bias towards Schoolboy rock stars.
One kid in particular last year appeared to be culled solely on his resume.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Breakdown in terms of what?
The 167 names or just numbers broken down by State, by School, by highest known Junior Rep Selection team or what?
@I Like To Watch, The odds of progressing higher are enhanced by representation at National U18's, when looking from Wallaby back down to their highest Junior Rep level, however the "Attended National U18 Tournament" population is a signigficantly larger population then "Australian Schoolboy/Schoolboy A, so it is logical that there would be more Wallabies that have attended National U18's.
Caution on using the last 10 years (2003 - 2013). While the development machine is probably much better in terms of talent identification, the lag between U18 and National selection counts out the last 3 years. Best to do a comparison over a 10 year period 2000-2009 inclusive, and accept that the most recent junior talent development initiatives (2010 - 2014) will not be in the sample population.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
My POV is that attendance at the National U18's is now almost a prerequisite for later honours.
The Cadeyrn Nevilles are very much the exception to the rule these days.
The Cadeyrn Nevilles are very much the exception to the rule these days.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
This is why the NRC is so important. The notion that missing under age representative honours kills your rugby career is something that we should fight with all the weapons at our disposal. The NRC provides opportunities for those young blokes to come to the attention of super rugby teams and by extension the national selectors. Playing only against kids your age and then going straight into the second tier and then test level is a recipe for disaster for most young players. It should be like our cricket system: you play at club level, then the Shield and then maybe you're good enough to play for Australia. It's good to see that rugby is now more in alignment with that method (it's taken us long enough).
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Correct. Very few make it to the Aust U20's without being one of the 184 kids (8 teams x 23 kids) at National U18's. Some made it to State U20's (a relatively new concept) last year without being one of the annointed 184.
I may send you the detail by PM.
Some of the info you ask will be a bit tricky to obtain, and some I may need to investigate further.
Basically all the easy information to get is on the web.
All the Wallabies are listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australia_national_rugby_union_players
All the Australian Schoolboys are listed here: http://austschools.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/AUSTRALIAN_SCHOOLBOYS_ALPHA_LISTING.pdf
courtesy of Judy Shilton (Brave and Game 2010).
Comparing the two gives you the figures I quoted above.
As an extras, all the NSW I and NSW II players since whenever can be found by clicking on the required link here:
http://www.nswschoolsrugby.rugbynet.com.au/default.asp?type=library
This allows a comparison and count of NSW 1/NSW II -> Schoolboy/SchoolboyA -> Wallaby to be made.
Do you know where the equivalent list exists for QLD 1 and QLD 2? Up until now I haven't really been bothered about the QLD side of things at QLD1/Q2 level. This list only breaks schoolboys down by State or school: http://austschools.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/AUSTRALIAN_SCHOOLBOYS_ALPHA_LISTING.pdf
I haven't broken down the names if they were immigrants from PI and NZ (or elsewhere) not sure a consolidated list of these exist. Would have to go through the lists one by one and this could take time. My feeling is that there isn't too many immigrants that did not play any junior rugby in Aust (such as Kepu, Aussie Mike). In that analysis, I would be including foreign born Wobs who played some school or junior rugby here as not being poached (Pocock, Sanchez, QC (Quade Cooper), Skelton).
Easy to count high profile League players who transferred to Wobs later in life. Not so easy to list those who jumped ship earlier in their career.
Even harder to track is Schoolboys lost to the dark code each year, but as an indication from Qld and NSW last year, 14 of the 112 Q1, Q2, N1, N2 and CS players at Nationals U18 went to League this year. I'm not so sure that the figure this year will be as high. Additionally 1 returned to Tonga and 1 is in New Zealand and apparently played in the recent NZ under 19 tournament for the Waikato Mooloos. There are some good lists bouncing around in the Where are the Class of <insert year> going to? Thread. There isn't a lot of info in Gaggerland about where the ACT, VIC, and WA players end up.
Might take a week or so to complete the various counts requested. It is a good gauntlet to throw down.
Sideline Eye
Darby Loudon (17)
Horan was definitely there at the Nationals on the same day as Eales. I was sitting behind him on the bleachers, and another bloke in tow I didn't recognise. I saw them both making their way around the other side of the field to chat to Tim's son after the game.
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