Australia vs South Africa - Brisbane 7th Sept 2013

[Hugh Jarse]

Nothing like a loss to get us all working together to solve the problem, setting aside any petty inter-franchise issues for the common good.

Bring Robbie into it and it will be just like the old days.

How can we sheet this home to being JO'N's fault? Neglect of the Juniors for the past 10 years?

 

[cyclopath]

I agree that we should all take a breath a bit.
The forward display was up there with the worst I have seen from the Wallabies in ages.
The past few games have told us little about the best backline combos, as they have not had much front foot ball. But Bob Dwyer has a good point - we used to be able to do better with less than 50% of the ball and a dusty set piece.
I think Genia is the bigger issue - he has been good for us before, but has been very inconsistent of late, and is in a rut of bad habits - meerkat behaviour (not all his fault, if there are no bodies to give it to), slow delivery and strange defensive positioning that seems unnecessary (going back for high balls when we have Folau and JOC (James O'Connor)) and so on. I think Cooper thrives on a confident and decisive Genia, and we are not seeing that. I don't think Cooper was too flash on the weekend, but there seems to be overly too much focus on him. Doesn't mean discussion is not valid.
Personally, I think To'omua is more likely to be our long-term better option, but I think pegging Cooper out after one go with far from ideal conditions is a bit harsh. I think he has something to offer.
Genia, on the other hand could do with a rest - give White a crack to start. It also gives us a bloody good kicking option.
I have no idea who to pick to fix the forwards - I doubt we have a lot of great options, but we better bloody see some more aggro and mongrel than the insipid shit delivered last weekend.

 

[Zander]

Cooper was awful, I don't see what he brings to the team, his running game has been non-existent ever since the ACL injury. His lateral passing game is too predictable and easy to pressure. To'omua brings a stern defence, a stronger kicking game and straightens the attack with a stronger running game. Quade's time in gold is over but will Ewen be balanced enough to see it?

 

[Ignoto]

Any first phase ball, particularly decent ball off the lineout, we looked average. Genia passing to a stationery Cooper needs to stop.

Without getting on the front foot, we're essentially shovelling shit from the base of the ruck to our backs who have a defensive force moving onto stationary targets. Our attack from the first phase is compromised by the forwards inability to make the defensive team take a step back instead of a step forward.

In the haze I vaguely remember plenty of half breaks, only for the runner to be isolated or in Cummins case, the ball was dropped. Changing the halves isn't going to change their ability to work with crap. We saw with Cooper and Toomu changing that it was the same result as the previous two weeks. I don't mind Cooper and To'omua swapping, but you're essentially making a change for change's sake.

The All Blacks have shown in recent years (and in the WC) that you don't need the worlds best fly-half to win the WC and matches. Their pack wins them games and allows their backs the time and space they need to score of phase 1 ball.

 

[PaarlBok]

He obviously didn't interview well PB.
Oh hang on,they ever got around to that did they?
Brumbies/Bok style looking a lot more attractive than it was 2 months ago!

I have no doubt the Wallabies would have been in much better state with Jake White. Thats one area of his coaching where he make sure he have the right stock. The bigger the better. Thats exacly where the current Wallabies got beaten time after time this year.

 

[PaarlBok]

Cooper was awful, I don't see what he brings to the team, his running game has been non-existent ever since the ACL injury. His lateral passing game is too predictable and easy to pressure. To'omua brings a stern defence, a stronger kicking game and straightens the attack with a stronger running game. Quade's time in gold is over but will Ewen be balanced enough to see it?

Cooper is an excellent player. He lack confidense at the moment. He need to play more to get it back. Blame it on Deans.

 

[It is what it is]

I have no doubt the Wallabies would have been in much better state with Jake White. Thats one area of his coaching where he make sure he have the right stock. The bigger the better. Thats exacly where the current Wallabies got beaten time after time this year.

OK, who are these "bigger and better" players that White would select?

 

[nugget]

Are they really "too friggin' small" "compared to the AB's and Boks", nugget? ....

As I indicated earlier in this thread, the underlying problem is PPPP - Piss Poor Physical Preparation, with the result that our blokes present as being undersized compared to their opponents. The problem is lack of functional strength and endurance not size. It's about time this issue was recognised and addressed.
.

Bruce, a touch pedantic, lack of functional strength and being too small are one and the same in my book. I should have said "not friggin' strong enough" Wouldn't expect a 180kg biggest loser contestant to beat 120kg 5% bodyfat beast in a ruck. Having said that, I agree with what you said.

The biggest problem is for mine is when they line up at the start of the games:

- the AB's, saffas, and argies look like battle hardened men ready to destroy anything and everything that gets in their way.

- The wallabies look like they've just returned from a two week holiday to Euro Disney. They look like boys.

 

[Braveheart81]

Without getting on the front foot, we're essentially shovelling shit from the base of the ruck to our backs who have a defensive force moving onto stationary targets. Our attack from the first phase is compromised by the forwards inability to make the defensive team take a step back instead of a step forward.

In the haze I vaguely remember plenty of half breaks, only for the runner to be isolated or in Cummins case, the ball was dropped. Changing the halves isn't going to change their ability to work with crap. We saw with Cooper and Toomu changing that it was the same result as the previous two weeks. I don't mind Cooper and To'omua swapping, but you're essentially making a change for change's sake.

The All Blacks have shown in recent years (and in the WC) that you don't need the worlds best fly-half to win the WC and matches. Their pack wins them games and allows their backs the time and space they need to score of phase 1 ball.

I'm talking about first phase ball, not ball coming from the ruck.

I even limited it to first phase lineout ball because our scrums were getting smashed.

What was clear off the lineout is that Cooper is standing pretty wide which is good but he is completely stationary when he receives the ball from Genia.

Cooper needs to be in motion when he receives the ball otherwise the backs outside him are stuck standing still or risk overrunning him before he is ready to pass.

The defenders opposite can charge up quickly at our backs because our players are stationary and won't be able to easily sidestep the oncoming defenders.

If you watch the clip on Bob Dwyer's article on the front page, Lilo takes the ball at first receiver on the move and puts AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) into space. There was nothing complicated about this move, it just involves backline players in motion.

As soon as your backs are all in motion prior to getting the ball, defenders stop advancing and are more concerned about holding their line than getting up and smashing the attackers.

 

[It is what it is]

Stationary = not moving
Stationery = envelopes
If in doubt remember the 'e' for envelopes

 

[Sully]

FFS!!! I'm not saying we should never change our halves! I'm saying stop talking about the stupid backs all the time. Jesus We could have had our best halve ever out there and the scoreline would have been nearly the same. After every loss you guys come in and bitch about your favourite player to bitch about and never talk about the real problems.

I'll start

Benny A (The first guy who came to mind but there are many others)got smashed in the Lions series Went back to Super Rugby where he got away with illegal binds for the rest of the season and then came back to international rugby and got smashed all over again. He like a lot of our forwards hasn't improved in the areas that have been shown up time and time again and I want to know why.

What can we do about it? Isn't it time all out Super franchises were preaching from the same bible? Shouldn't the ARU be employing a TOP NOTCH FOREIGN Forwards coach to sort out the cluster fuck that is Australia's set pieces? One full time head of forward coaching for all Australian Franchises and unions.

Ben Darwin wasn't a very good prop. How did he get the Australian coaching gig and how did he keep it when Link came on board?

 

[Braveheart81]

After every loss you guys come in and bitch about your favourite player to bitch about and never talk about the real problems.

I'll start

Benny A (The first guy who came to mind but there are many others)got smashed in the Lions series Went back to Super Rugby where he got away with illegal binds for the rest of the season and then came back to international rugby and got smashed all over again. He like a lot of our forwards hasn't improved in the areas that have been shown up time and time again and I want to know why.

The issues that are contentious will receive the most discussion.

The only disagreement regarding Ben Alexander getting dropped is the height of the building from which to drop him.

 

[PaarlBok]

OK, who are these "bigger and better" players that White would select?

He'll get them and coach them. Look what he did with the Brumbies. Their 1st phase was one of the best in the S15 competition, coming from nowhere. Jake is the type if he dont know, he'll get the right coach to help him.

 

[It is what it is]

I'll add to it.
Kepu - passive, unfit and has lost his athleticism and ball running skills he came to professional rugby with - what has the system done to improve him?
Genia and Moore just look and play like they are physically and mentally exhausted.

 

[Sully]

again I was only using Ben as an example.

The same could be said for Moores Hooking. Who's teaching our Hookers to hook?

Simmons has stopped giving as many penalties but he still goes missing.

Out tight five set up in scrums is all over the place. Props shoulders too low and Second rower hips too high. Who is fixing that?

We are still picking un balanced back rows and back fives for that matter. I know it's not like we have a choice.

Why is Ben Mowen trying to pick the ball up in the scrum?

 

[It is what it is]

He'll get them and coach them. Look what he did with the Brumbies. Their 1st phase was one of the best in the S15 competition, coming from nowhere. Jake is the type if he dont know, he'll get the right coach to help him.

So, I think what you're saying is that we currently do not have any bigger or better players but need to identify them and develop them. Maybe that's what McKenzie is trying to do too, but he still needs to put a test team out each match.

 

[Phil]

A bit late contributing to the thread, but I would just like to say that was the most disappointed I have been with the team this year,even more than with the 3rd Lions test.Mainly because they promised so much before the game then delivered fuck all.Switched the TV off 10 minutes from end,so did not see how gracious Boks were in winning.Bloody good performance by them,though,so congratulations.
Sad state of affairs when the game I am looking forward to this weekend is SA vs Kiwis!

 

[Brumby Jack]

Here's what Michael Lynagh had to say about the game.

A Wallaby Hall Of Fame inductee should be listened to.

 

[PaarlBok]

So, I think what you're saying is that we currently do not have any bigger or better players but need to identify them and develop them. Maybe that's what McKenzie is trying to do too, but he still needs to put a test team out each match.

Always dangerous to think what I try to say. Jake White identifying of players who he want in his test team will be totally different to what McKenzie do. Jake surely dont look only to a players physical condition and players ability, he seem to identify the right one with the right attetude, what we call between the ears. Thats where he seem to get it right, he'll turn an average player into a good one, an average team into a good one. He have been there, done that, so many times before. I dunno if your current coach have this ability? Just my cent worth, coming from an outsider, maybe a stupid Saffer.

 

[Bullrush]

When I first found this forum about 3 yrs ago, I said way back then that there is something lacking in the Australian rugby players mentality in regards to that hard, tough edge that we call mongrel. That intangible feel that you get around hard mutha-f**krs. I'm not trying to be demeaning or anything but I've said it before and I'll say it again.....you get the feel that the Wallaby pack has to make some sort of concentrated effort to 'get up' for games and be monsters and be physical where as NZ and SA forwards play like that because that's just what's expected when you wear No.1 - No.8.

Rugby players - and forwards in particular - shouldn't have to 'dig deep' or 'get up' for games.....surely, SURELY the mongrel and aggression and hard edge is why you play this game in the first place?!?! We're LOOKING for contact, we're LIVING to put the hurt on someone, we're DREAMING every night about making the opposition remember the day they ran it straight at us or tried to tackle us one-on-one.

I know I'm not a Test player but hell - that's why I play...LOL