Australia v NZ. Bledisloe Cup Series 2024. Sep 21, Sep 28

[stillmissit]

You said you hadn't noticed anyone pushing for selection. These guys are absolute babies in prop years and are pushing for selection. They will be part of Wallaby set up for the next decade.

Find me an international level prop under the age of 23.

DC, can we take Bell out of this discussion? He is the first prop chosen in any Wallaby team, he AIN"T pushing for selection.

 

[stillmissit]

Our development systems are highly unlikely to produce top level scrummaging props, because it is a skill that isn't valued here.

Everyone thrashwanks themselves over backs because they score tries. Nobody remembers how they got the ball.

Even in the 90's we valued props that's why we brought a couple of good ones from Argentina but we never used them to train our young props. There is a level of madness in our rugby and it has been there for a fair while. Good props are not there just to do the scrummaging and I accept that but if a player is not outstanding at his basic function and we accept and applaud the Dunning's of the rugby world, well you get what you want.

 

[Slim 293]

Slim take off the Brumbies glasses, he ain't a great prop and never was. Good defender, around the park and at the breakdown. A good scrummaging prop he ain't.

He's played most of his career at the Reds, and I fondly remember his work as part of the bench front row at RWC2015...

There was very little separating him and Sio through most of the years they played together at the Wallabies, and then the Brumbies.

Then there was the game against England in 2022 that he was forced into THP and did a job over his English counterpart.

I'm not sure if it's his recent form, or that memory of his early career struggles at THP against the Lions that's causing some amnesia...

 

[Bullrush]

I’m not sure I’d have Slipper as a starter in a world XV at any point in his career however I’d be surprised if there were more than 3 or 4 players who were CLEARLY better than him at any point in time since he debuted.

Wallaby’s scrum was a laughing stock before his arrival and he’s not even a pot plant. Pointing at him as a symptom of our problems is just so far off reality. We need more players like him, not fewer.

If we had a team full of players who were about fifth best in the world in their position we would have won way more games in the last 10 years than we did, I’m sure of that.

His career is definitely coming to an end and part of that is his consistency will really struggle as we saw last hitout. I’d have Kailea in front of him atm but not by that much because at Slipper’s best he’s still able to plug heaps of holes in our team.

The problem isn't that Slipper has never been an elite prop eg. Top 5 or someone you would think of in a All World XV. It's that he is still considered by some to be in the top 2 the Wallabies can select from. If I was a Wallaby fan, I would have hoped that someone else would have come along by now to put real heat on his inclusion.

The ABs have had - and continue to have - plenty of guys who are in the same position - TJP for example. Pretending that Perenara is elite doesn't solve anything.

I'm not saying Slipper has been a shit player from day dot. I'm saying he isn't in the tier of guys like Gregan, McCaw, O'Driscoll and Wyn Jones. All guys who also played a shit-load of Test. Because they were elite. Not because no-one else was good enough.

Nic White is another in this basket.

 

[KOB1987]

Nic White is another in this basket.

We have had lots of players in this basket over the last 20 years. We all acknowledge it's an issue and there have been thousands of pages on this forum proposing various remedies that encapsulate every tier from U6's right through to the test team. As much as I'd like to hear it, this isn't the thread to find out yours, so I won't ask for it.

 

[Yoda]

The problem isn't that Slipper has never been an elite prop eg. Top 5 or someone you would think of in a All World XV. It's that he is still considered by some to be in the top 2 the Wallabies can select from. If I was a Wallaby fan, I would have hoped that someone else would have come along by now to put real heat on his inclusion.

The ABs have had - and continue to have - plenty of guys who are in the same position - TJP for example. Pretending that Perenara is elite doesn't solve anything.

I'm not saying Slipper has been a shit player from day dot. I'm saying he isn't in the tier of guys like Gregan, McCaw, O'Driscoll and Wyn Jones. All guys who also played a shit-load of Test. Because they were elite. Not because no-one else was good enough.

Nic White is another in this basket.

This forum is full of so called experts on the lounge. He can’t help no else can take his place. I’m sure every one of his Tests he has given his all. The fact he has been able to play so many Tests is an amazing feat considering a player is always only one game away from injury. Gregan was lucky towards the back end of his career to be continually to be selected considering there WAS someone else better than him. Chris Whitaker. A great 9 that definitely didn’t get enough starting Tests to his name.

 

[Derpus]

The problem isn't that Slipper has never been an elite prop eg. Top 5 or someone you would think of in a All World XV. It's that he is still considered by some to be in the top 2 the Wallabies can select from. If I was a Wallaby fan, I would have hoped that someone else would have come along by now to put real heat on his inclusion.

The ABs have had - and continue to have - plenty of guys who are in the same position - TJP for example. Pretending that Perenara is elite doesn't solve anything.

I'm not saying Slipper has been a shit player from day dot. I'm saying he isn't in the tier of guys like Gregan, McCaw, O'Driscoll and Wyn Jones. All guys who also played a shit-load of Test. Because they were elite. Not because no-one else was good enough.

Nic White is another in this basket.

And where, pray tell, are we to find this talent?

 

[Dismal Pillock]

Chris Whitaker. A great 9

 

[Slim 293]

Gregan was lucky towards the back end of his career to be continually to be selected considering there WAS someone else better than him. Chris Whitaker. A great 9 that definitely didn’t get enough starting Tests to his name.

Nah…

 

[Strewthcobber]

C'mon Christy we are desperate for a team leak or something here.

 

[Bullrush]

This forum is full of so called experts on the lounge. He can’t help no else can take his place. I’m sure every one of his Tests he has given his all. The fact he has been able to play so many Tests is an amazing feat considering a player is always only one game away from injury. Gregan was lucky towards the back end of his career to be continually to be selected considering there WAS someone else better than him. Chris Whitaker. A great 9 that definitely didn’t get enough starting Tests to his name.

Sure. Nothing I have said goes against any of that.

It's not about Slipper the player, it was always about what has been wrong with Australian rugby for the past decade or so...

 

[Bullrush]

And where, pray tell, are we to find this talent?

I don't know.

All I'm saying is that Slipper is a snapshot of the struggles in Australian rugby. The fact he has so many caps is a problem.

It's not his fault and he has done nothing wrong or bad. It just is what it is right now...

 

[Yoda]

C'mon Christy we are desperate for a team leak or something here.

Edmed to start at 10! His love child Foley to be on the bench!

 

[Sword of Justice]

I don't know.

All I'm saying is that Slipper is a snapshot of the struggles in Australian rugby. The fact he has so many caps is a problem.

It's not his fault and he has done nothing wrong or bad. It just is what it is right now...

Again I’d have to dispute that. If we had 15 Slippers we’d have won more games. Way more.

Would you say Cian Healy is a snapshot of the problems Ireland are having? They’ve had almost identical careers and I’d say he’s a shade less of a player than Slipper. Yet they’re ranked number 2.

I agree LHP could be a bit more competitive for Australia but other than South Africa recently every team has lack of depth somewhere at some time. That’s just a snapshot of life.

 

[Bullrush]

Again I’d have to dispute that. If we had 15 Slippers we’d have won more games. Way more.

Would you say Cian Healy is a snapshot of the problems Ireland are having? They’ve had almost identical careers and I’d say he’s a shade less of a player than Slipper. Yet they’re ranked number 2.

I agree LHP could be a bit more competitive for Australia but other than South Africa recently every team has lack of depth somewhere at some time. That’s just a snapshot of life.

You would be in a small minority that ranks Slipper ahead of Healy. Slipper might be your preference but Healy has had the far better career:

Leinster
4× European Rugby Champions Cup: 2009, 2011, 2012 2018
7× United Rugby Championship: 2008, 2013, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021
1× European Challenge Cup: 2013

Ireland
5× Six Nations Championship: 2014, 2015, 2018, 2023, 2024
2× Grand Slam: 2018, 2023
3× Triple Crown: 2018, 2022, 2023

Healy has been considered the better prop over the course of their careers as well. Go look at any 'Top Loose Head Prop' lists or articles over the last 10 years and see if Slipper is ever mentioned. It's more likely to see Sio's name than Slipper's.

Having a lack of depth in a position is normal but when that lack of depth means the average player in the spot plays more Tests than anyone else in the history of your team - you are in trouble.

 

[Mr Pilfer]

Just watched highlights of last years bledisloe game 2. We played very well, got a good lead and should have won . Then everything went to shit after that.

Only about 6 in the starting lineup still starting now so a big change. Tom Hooper looked like a standout at 6, I think we should be giving him more opportunities/game time

 

[stillmissit]

Gregan was lucky towards the back end of his career to be continually to be selected considering there WAS someone else better than him. Chris Whitaker. A great 9 that definitely didn’t get enough starting Tests to his name.

That was Jones V1 running McQueens best into the ground.

 

[Sword of Justice]

You would be in a small minority that ranks Slipper ahead of Healy. Slipper might be your preference but Healy has had the far better career:

Leinster
4× European Rugby Champions Cup: 2009, 2011, 2012 2018
7× United Rugby Championship: 2008, 2013, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021
1× European Challenge Cup: 2013

Ireland
5× Six Nations Championship: 2014, 2015, 2018, 2023, 2024
2× Grand Slam: 2018, 2023
3× Triple Crown: 2018, 2022, 2023

Healy has been considered the better prop over the course of their careers as well. Go look at any 'Top Loose Head Prop' lists or articles over the last 10 years and see if Slipper is ever mentioned. It's more likely to see Sio's name than Slipper's.

Having a lack of depth in a position is normal but when that lack of depth means the average player in the spot plays more Tests than anyone else in the history of your team - you are in trouble.

You’re using team achievements to rank individual careers which is kind of proving my point. If the Wallabies were a better team all reputations would be greatly enhanced.

Healy is a decent scrummager workload type prop. I’d say he’s a slightly better scrum operator but slightly worse around the field and hey look, he has more test caps than anyone in the history of their team except BOD. That is the power of reliably delivering the core KPIs in your position.

We lose games because players aren’t able to execute basic skills over and over. Who were the props in the great All Blacks team from last decade? Basically nobodies but they laid an incredible platform for their team. This is a point I’ve tried to make several times and will leave it at that.

 

[Bullrush]

You’re using team achievements to rank individual careers which is kind of proving my point. If the Wallabies were a better team all reputations would be greatly enhanced.

Healy is a decent scrummager workload type prop. I’d say he’s a slightly better scrum operator but slightly worse around the field and hey look, he has more test caps than anyone in the history of their team except BOD. That is the power of reliably delivering the core KPIs in your position.

We lose games because players aren’t able to execute basic skills over and over. Who were the props in the great All Blacks team from last decade? Basically nobodies but they laid an incredible platform for their team. This is a point I’ve tried to make several times and will leave it at that.

Again....you are in the minority on Healy. He is considered as an important part of those teams that have achieved those titles. Slipper has never been considered on anyone's 'Best Props' list. Healy has because he is considered a better prop. To say that they have had 'identical careers' is laughable and the team accomplishments are a huge part of a player's career.

All Black props in the last 10 years who have been considered in the same way: Woodcock, Franks, Moody.

And then you see a number of names who have come and gone eg. Laulala, Hames, Tu'inukuafe, Ta'avao, Crockett. The point is that none of those guys in the second list were ever in danger of becoming the most capped ABs of all-time. Which is the point I've tried to make several times.

Anyway, hopefully the ABs are heading into a bit of a golden era for props with Williams, Lomax, de Groot and Newell all looking to be stalwarts in the black jersey for the next few years.

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[Yoda]

Saturday suggested team v New Zealand

1. Angus Bell
2. Matt Faesslar
3. Taniela Tupou
4. Nick Frost
5. Lukhan Salakai-Loto
6. Rob Valetini
7. Fraser McReight
8. Harry Wilson (c)
9. Nic White
10. Ben Donaldson
11. Corey Toole
12. Hamish Stewart
13. Len Ikitau
14. Tom Wright
15. Andrew Kellaway
16. Brandon Paenga-Amosa
17. James Slipper
18. Allan Ala‘alatoa
19. Jeremy Williams
20. Langi Gleeson
21. Jake Gordon
22. Noah Lolesio
23. Max Jorgensen

The Force combination of White, Donaldson and Stewart hasn’t started yet and I believe it should. Kellaway is too slow for wing and is better at the back. Toole is fast and needs a start. We need to score tries to beat the All Blacks and having Wright and Toole on the wings give the Wallabies a good chance of that.
Do realise that Joe will no doubt pick Noah again but don’t see the logic. He’s not the best 10 imho.