All Blacks Non-Bledisloe Matches 2024

[waiopehu oldboy]

Isaia Walker-Leawere covering for PatT this week.

 

[molman]

Ok. I'm curious about the All-Black fans honest thoughts about this team. Some of these selections and who is dropped just seem a tad odd to me. Don't get me wrong, lots of individually great players in this team, but lots of playing out of preferred, usual position, players who arguably weren't the best this Super season.

 

[zer0]

The squad was mostly selected in January with just a few squad positions up for grabs, as per a Scott Hansen interview after the first team was named. Super Rugby basically had no importance except for those fringe positions. Even then, they typically went for theoretical potential over demonstrated form (for e.g., George Bell over Ricky Riccitelli, and Wallace Sititi over Hoskins Sotutu).

There's a lot of conservative selections, which I absolutely did not expect from surfer dude McSuper-coach. Hopefully this is just a 2004 Henry situation and the changes (selection + tactics) will become more evident on the EOYT and 2025.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

The squad was mostly selected in January with just a few squad positions up for grabs, as per a Scott Hansen interview after the first team was named. Super Rugby basically had no importance except for those fringe positions. Even then, they typically went for theoretical potential over demonstrated form (for e.g., George Bell over Ricky Riccitelli, and Wallace Sititi over Hoskins Sotutu).

There's a lot of conservative selections, which I absolutely did not expect from surfer dude McSuper-coach. Hopefully this is just a 2004 Henry situation and the changes (selection + tactics) will become more evident on the EOYT and 2025.

Agree totally, its basically a copout from a new coach who has surmised "ok, lost RWC final by one point, good enough for me, you don't have to play your way in, all you can do is play your way out."

 

[Dismal Pillock]

The black winter solstice of discontent
to be immolified as The Tenured Princeling
Rieko returns triumphant to Eden Park with a
match-winning hat trick, a stern vernal equinox
of seasoned spice, a 3-Headed Hydra, The
Serpent, The Python, The Viper.
Godspeed The Vortex and Praise
Be The Black Death.​

 

[KiwiM]

Ok. I'm curious about the All-Black fans honest thoughts about this team. Some of these selections and who is dropped just seem a tad odd to me. Don't get me wrong, lots of individually great players in this team, but lots of playing out of preferred, usual position, players who arguably weren't the best this Super season.

I think it's a coaching staff with a heap of coaches/selectors without a huge amount of text experience that are finding their way.

They are stuck between trying what has worked for Crusaders in Super Rugby (hybrid loosies, Reece etc) and defaulting to experience (Perenara at 9, Beauden at 15 etc). The issue is, in the meantime they don't seem to have an obvious plan as they don't have like for like replacements (Finau is a totally different 6 to Blackadder, Perenara is a totally different 9 to Hotham and Ratima, Jordan and Love are much different 15s to Beauden and Perofeta etc).

The question will be - can they make the adjustments needed. Henry, Hansen and Smith did in 2004 in their first year - initially trying guys like X Rush, J Gibbes etc before on the end of year tour settling on their team (So'oialo 8, Collins 6, Carter 10 etc).

My almost bigger worry is the game plan - their attack frankly.... sucks. It's ripped straight out of Super Rugby and honestly I don't actually think it suits the players at all (or test rugby) - the game is built on moving the ball quickly to space but the skills or smarts in this AB team aren't actually very high - I think they'd better suited to Vern Cotter Killdozer Ball.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Ok. I'm curious about the All-Black fans honest thoughts about this team. Some of these selections and who is dropped just seem a tad odd to me. Don't get me wrong, lots of individually great players in this team, but lots of playing out of preferred, usual position, players who arguably weren't the best this Super season.

Late to the convo so possibly already mentioned but the problems last week were first & foremost the forwards not providing quick, quality ball; A dreadful performance from our 9; and (Edit: at least in part causing) DMac reverting to blowfly-in-a-bottle mode.

So we swap out the centre & both wings, none of whom had a great night but I'd argue we didn't lose because of them: very much a case of needing to identify & address the root rather than proximate causes IMO.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

 

[molman]

I think it's a coaching staff with a heap of coaches/selectors without a huge amount of text experience that are finding their way.

They are stuck between trying what has worked for Crusaders in Super Rugby (hybrid loosies, Reece etc) and defaulting to experience (Perenara at 9, Beauden at 15 etc). The issue is, in the meantime they don't seem to have an obvious plan as they don't have like for like replacements (Finau is a totally different 6 to Blackadder, Perenara is a totally different 9 to Hotham and Ratima, Jordan and Love are much different 15s to Beauden and Perofeta etc).

The question will be - can they make the adjustments needed. Henry, Hansen and Smith did in 2004 in their first year - initially trying guys like X Rush, J Gibbes etc before on the end of year tour settling on their team (So'oialo 8, Collins 6, Carter 10 etc).

My almost bigger worry is the game plan - their attack frankly.... sucks. It's ripped straight out of Super Rugby and honestly I don't actually think it suits the players at all (or test rugby) - the game is built on moving the ball quickly to space but the skills or smarts in this AB team aren't actually very high - I think they'd better suited to Vern Cotter Killdozer Ball.

Agree, re: the game plan, attacking structures. I think you could accept the personnel changes and selections if it was clear what they were working towards and that what you were seeing made sense should they execute, but like you, I'm just not sure that it does. Especially at test level. The high number of passes and desire to shift the ball without seemingly earning it upfront isn't going to work at test level where defences are so much quicker and generally well organised. Some of the set piece like the lineout has been less than impressive and the compounding errors have hurt them. Those wayward passes from Ardie and then Damian in the last game were so not usual All Blacks brand play. I know attacking structures generally take longer to imbed than defensive and other elements. I mean look and England, it's only really now that they're starting to show some genuine attacking flair with the injection of some Saints players and Smith being given the reins so maybe there is a long plan I'm just not seeing.

I'm a big McKenzie fan. Generally love watching him play, but I'm not yet convinced he’s the right conductor for the All Blacks. I'd like to see him get there because he's been in the shadow for awhile, but I'm not sure he will.

I also think they've in a really odd spot with players like Mo'unga sitting outside the team and Perenara soon to put himself in a similar position. You've got to get wins on the board, but also, who do you build around. Whats the DNA or signature for this iteration of the All Blacks.

Whilst I'm looking forward to this next game to see how they respond, I think it's the games against South Africa that I'm most eagerly awaiting.

 

[molman]

Late to the convo so possibly already mentioned but the problems last week were first & foremost the forwards not providing quick, quality ball; A dreadful performance from our 9; and (Edit: at least in part causing) DMac reverting to blowfly-in-a-bottle mode.

So we swap out the centre & both wings, none of whom had a great night but I'd argue we didn't lose because of them: very much a case of needing to identify & address the root rather than proximate causes IMO.

Who would you have swapped out if you'd been on the seleciton panel?

 

[molman]

The squad was mostly selected in January with just a few squad positions up for grabs, as per a Scott Hansen interview after the first team was named. Super Rugby basically had no importance except for those fringe positions. Even then, they typically went for theoretical potential over demonstrated form (for e.g., George Bell over Ricky Riccitelli, and Wallace Sititi over Hoskins Sotutu).

There's a lot of conservative selections, which I absolutely did not expect from surfer dude McSuper-coach. Hopefully this is just a 2004 Henry situation and the changes (selection + tactics) will become more evident on the EOYT and 2025.

Do you have thoughts on why Razor has gone this route? Is there some balance of experience and age that he's going for?

I can't say I personally understood the Sotutu one, but maybe there are things we don't see.

 

[KiwiM]

Who would you have swapped out if you'd been on the seleciton panel?

Perenara is the obvious one.

Blackadder isn't the answer at 6.

Would also like to have seen Aumua get a start and bring Codie off of the bench

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Who would you have swapped out if you'd been on the seleciton panel?

We're pretty much stuck with the current tight-five until ScoBar is healthy again so no changes in personnel there but they obviously need to up the physicality. The HT comment from Ryan (?) wrt the clean & carry not being good enough said it all, really.

Similarly there's not too many alternatives in the loose, Sotutu aside (which won't happen as long as ASav is captain). As with the tighties it's more an attitude & work-rate issue: ASav is standing off too much, suggesting he maybe doesn't trust his 6 & 7 to get the job done so feels he needs to be second man in. EB isn't the long-term answer at 6 but Finau is a walking Red Card so I'd keep him until someone better presents (so a bit like his old man in that regard )

I'd definitely have Cane in my 23 & probably starting with DPap or Jorgensen coming on later.

TJP shouldn't have been picked IMO but he's probably worth keeping around in a mentoring-type role & as the "break glass" option.

One of Tele’a or Reece had to make way for CC, they're just too same/ same & that's something that I can't really recall ever working for us plus MT just looks uncomfortable at 11.

Beaugan should only be an impact player these days, whether at 15 or 10. It's insane that a guy who's basically another Cullen is stuck on the wing waiting for a kick-pass or contestable box kick to come his way.

 

[molman]

We're pretty much stuck with the current tight-five until ScoBar is healthy again so no changes in personnel there but they obviously need to up the physicality. The HT comment from Ryan (?) wrt the clean & carry not being good enough said it all, really.

Similarly there's not too many alternatives in the loose, Sotutu aside (which won't happen as long as ASav is captain). As with the tighties it's more an attitude & work-rate issue: ASav is standing off too much, suggesting he maybe doesn't trust his 6 & 7 to get the job done so feels he needs to be second man in. EB isn't the long-term answer at 6 but Finau is a walking Red Card so I'd keep him until someone better presents (so a bit like his old man in that regard )

I'd definitely have Cane in my 23 & probably starting with DPap or Jorgensen coming on later.

TJP shouldn't have been picked IMO but he's probably worth keeping around in a mentoring-type role & as the "break glass" option.

One of Tele’a or Reece had to make way for CC, they're just too same/ same & that's something that I can't really recall ever working for us plus MT just looks uncomfortable at 11.

Beaugan should only be an impact player these days, whether at 15 or 10. It's insane that a guy who's basically another Cullen is stuck on the wing waiting for a kick-pass or contestable box kick to come his way.

Ardie hasn't entirely impressed me upon his return this year. I agree that the loosies don't seem to have it worked out yet. Also agree re: Finau. Physically the boy had so much promise but he's got to get his top inches sorted so he's more accurate on when to pull the trigger or not. I felt that they did a disservice to him not pinning him for some of those obvious late hits this Super season.

Tele'a is also another one who hasn't wowed me this season either. He's seemed a lot more subdued this year after his break out year a season or two back.

I'm curious to see how Cane goes upon his return. Until that card in the RWC I felt like he was stringing together some performances which were some of the better we'd seen. It'll be interesting to see if Japan has freshened him up or if he'll be a bit behind the pace. Not having the captaincy will likely been a boon for him just focusing on his core role.

I assume your Cullen comment is re: Jordan?

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

I assume your Cullen comment is re: Jordan?

You'd be correct in that assumption.

 

[molman]

You'd be correct in that assumption.

To be fair he is just returning from injury and after Beauden's impact in that English game you can see their thinking, but yes, I agree.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^ Beaugan's IMPACT in that England game kinda indicates that's how he's best utilised these days, doesn't it?

 

[zer0]

Who would you have swapped out if you'd been on the seleciton panel?

Ricky Ricattelli should absolutely be in for Stormtrooper Bell and probably on the bench behind Aumua. Papali'i, Cane, Jacobson, and Blackadder are all samey, but the first two are clearly the best of them. Break them up with Peter Lakai and maybe even Brayden Iose (Savea at flanker) who provide more carrying power (Lakai may even force more turnovers). Akira Ioane for Finau; he won't get RC for stupid + needless late hits and forces a lot of tackles into maul turnovers (i.e., scrums).

Longer term, hopefully Suafoa returns to his 2022/23 form after his health issues this seaon as he could be an ideal blindside. With Ioane leaving he should be at the top of the Blues depth chart. Fabian Holland is available from next season IIRC, and the Blues locks will have another season under Stern Vern.

For the backs, Christie is the #3 HB at the Blues and shouldn't be anywhere near the squad, so get Taufa Funaki in. Proctor at centre. Speaking of centres, AJ Lam is a better centre than Rieko and should be starting there for the Blues next season. I'm not really sure what Rieko offers these days tbh unless he wants to shift back into a power wing role. Even then, he'd have to carry in tight as Clarke does because I can't see him replicating Jordan's ability to make breaks one or two spaces out. Beauden on the bench.

 

[Dan54]

Ricky Ricattelli should absolutely be in for Stormtrooper Bell and probably on the bench behind Aumua. Papali'i, Cane, Jacobson, and Blackadder are all samey, but the first two are clearly the best of them. Break them up with Peter Lakai and maybe even Brayden Iose (Savea at flanker) who provide more carrying power (Lakai may even force more turnovers). Akira Ioane for Finau; he won't get RC for stupid + needless late hits and forces a lot of tackles into maul turnovers (i.e., scrums).

Longer term, hopefully Suafoa returns to his 2022/23 form after his health issues this seaon as he could be an ideal blindside. With Ioane leaving he should be at the top of the Blues depth chart. Fabian Holland is available from next season IIRC, and the Blues locks will have another season under Stern Vern.

For the backs, Christie is the #3 HB at the Blues and shouldn't be anywhere near the squad, so get Taufa Funaki in. Proctor at centre. Speaking of centres, AJ Lam is a better centre than Rieko and should be starting there for the Blues next season. I'm not really sure what Rieko offers these days tbh unless he wants to shift back into a power wing role. Even then, he'd have to carry in tight as Clarke does because I can't see him replicating Jordan's ability to make breaks one or two spaces out. Beauden on the bench.

Since when had Christie been No 3 halfback at the Blues. He is clearly their No 1, . I do agree maybe he shouldn't be in ABs though, Funaki either, not in the same class as Ratima, Hotham and Roigard (or TJ)
Riccitelli just leave him with Naki huh . He's handy forus. Was talking to him ablout 2 hours ago, the Naki boys were meeting at Hwera for the players from this part and were watching/supporting the Naki women. He's smaller than I thought.
But also like your thinking with Suafoa, like the look of that boy as I do with Max Hicks from Tasman/Clan, would really like him to get a peek.
Can't wait to see my man Holland finally in ABs, and will be there for a bloody long time (as will Darry I suspect)

 

[zer0]

Been some right proper Vern-ball weather today and seems it will mostly continue into the night.