3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]

[CarlUnger]

Quick hands you're right about Brookvale not being too bad to get to I was thinking though more about people from the other side of the spit identifying with a team that plays out of Brookie. MW Sea Eagles have been trying to become the team of the north for a few years now and when I tell my mates that the Eagles are the local team they rightfully dont take it seriously and these are people who dont remember the Bears. Western Sydney Rams would have a similar problem with a team that only plays at Concord or a Southern team that only plays at Kogarah.

 

[Done that]

"Western" team:Eastwood,West Harbour,Parramatta,Penrith,& Southern Districts.
"Eastern" team : Uni,Easts,Randwick.

 

[Quick Hands]

Quick hands you're right about Brookvale not being too bad to get to I was thinking though more about people from the other side of the spit identifying with a team that plays out of Brookie. MW Sea Eagles have been trying to become the team of the north for a few years now and when I tell my mates that the Eagles are the local team they rightfully dont take it seriously and these are people who dont remember the Bears. Western Sydney Rams would have a similar problem with a team that only plays at Concord or a Southern team that only plays at Kogarah.

That's why it's essential IMO to have all of the 4 northern clubs involved and feeling an equal part of it. I'd hope that the players and officials would do everything possible to be the team of northern Sydney, not the team of the northern beaches. If it's done properly and people feel a part of it, most rugby supporters in the region will get behind it. It might take some people a year or two. Getting the kids involved is a big part of it, if junior wants to go to the game, dad will take him and might even enjoy it.

Same goes for other JVs, which is why I find the Randwick stand-alone proposal so ludicrous and an example of the arrogant, narrow self-interest which holds rugby back.

Probably the most encouraging thing so far is that the ARU have given grass roots the opportunity to put teams together and put in an EOI, instead of the opposite process which occurred for the ARC. There's a big message there for SS clubs to get together in geographically based JVs, make it an equal partnership and get all rugby people from all the clubs involved. If some clubs don't take the chance given to them, I suspectthe decision will be taken out of their hands.

 

[Quick Hands]

"Western" team:Eastwood,West Harbour,Parramatta,Penrith,& Southern Districts.
"Eastern" team : Uni,Easts,Randwick.

I wonder how the good citizens of the Shire feel about being in the western suburbs?

Isn't a south-eastern Sydney team a better fit for them? Particularly if games are played at Kogarah?

 

[RugbyFuture]

I have a feeling quick hands has the same idealism that people in my uni course have, thinking that people will change rather than the product. the product has to initially appeal to the audience and whether the feeder teams are from the local area or not, pushing people to go to brookvale to support that regional team wouldn't happen, understandable that its a suitable stadium and the only one at that, but both those from the peninsula and those from the north shore are incredibly insular people. Most won't travel beyond the lane cove river!

we witnessed in the ARC how difficult it is to pull people from the different districts together to support one team, even though that was horrendous placement. Ideally there would be a stadium at st leonards park that was rectangular but there isn't.

I would still try and figure it out over time and place them at NSO. with the sydney team playing out of either redfern or leichardt and the western team out of parra. In brisbane I think the only options would be ballymore and the athletics centre(?).

The other thing about brookvale is that you'd be competing with a more strongly leaguey based populace. Its the last bastion of league in the northern region of sydney afterall. Most would not support rugby.

There should probably be stroger associations with the district clubs ie. you buy a double team membership to both the rats and the rays at the same time, they just come as a package deal.

over time you can see expansion and the possibility of expansion to a southern stnadalone team, you might see a standalone beaches team too. (or we can dream of the day when rugby league dies and has to assimilate into rugby)

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[p.Tah]

The other thing about brookvale is that you'd be competing with a more strongly leaguey based populace. Its the last bastion of league in the northern region of sydney afterall. Most would not support rugby.

I think you'd be surprised how many on the Northern beaches support rugby.

 

[Done that]

I wonder how the good citizens of the Shire feel about being in the western suburbs?

Isn't a south-eastern Sydney team a better fit for them? Particularly if games are played at Kogarah?

Don't shoot the messager.

 

[Dave Beat]

The other thing about brookvale is that you'd be competing with a more strongly leaguey based populace. Its the last bastion of league in the northern region of sydney afterall. Most would not support rugby.

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As P.Tah said, I'm not to concerned about the beaches pulling the crowds.

 

[Drew]

Great call on the club/3T memberships. As far as local rivalries go, Neath and Swansea probably won't best of friends before they merged to form Ospreys, all the currie cup/ITM games between teams under the same super rugby umbrella are willing. Good rugby players play well for whoever they play for.

 

[wamberal]

we witnessed in the ARC how difficult it is to pull people from the different districts together to support one team.

A lot was wrong with the ARC, but I am not sure that I would be drawing too many lessons from it. The major problems are no longer problems - at least not next season (the Sydney clubs were against it, the debut season was the World Cup year, etc etc).


It will be a long, slow, haul to build up a following for any of the franchises. I reckon the keys will be (a) that all the franchises have identities that a local fan base can identify with (b) that the playing venues are attractive both to spectators and the television audience and (c) that the rugby is of a good standard, and it is played in the right spirit.

Get those three factors right and then hope for the best, and be patient. The ARC has to have a 10 year time frame, at least, before success or failure is judged.

 

[Quick Hands]

I have a feeling quick hands has the same idealism that people in my uni course have, thinking that people will change rather than the product. the product has to initially appeal to the audience and whether the feeder teams are from the local area or not, pushing people to go to brookvale to support that regional team wouldn't happen, understandable that its a suitable stadium and the only one at that, but both those from the peninsula and those from the north shore are incredibly insular people. Most won't travel beyond the lane cove river!

we witnessed in the ARC how difficult it is to pull people from the different districts together to support one team, even though that was horrendous placement. Ideally there would be a stadium at st leonards park that was rectangular but there isn't.

I would still try and figure it out over time and place them at NSO. with the sydney team playing out of either redfern or leichardt and the western team out of parra. In brisbane I think the only options would be ballymore and the athletics centre(?).

The other thing about brookvale is that you'd be competing with a more strongly leaguey based populace. Its the last bastion of league in the northern region of sydney afterall. Most would not support rugby.

There should probably be stroger associations with the district clubs ie. you buy a double team membership to both the rats and the rays at the same time, they just come as a package deal.

over time you can see expansion and the possibility of expansion to a southern stnadalone team, you might see a standalone beaches team too. (or we can dream of the day when rugby league dies and has to assimilate into rugby)

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If being idealistic means that I think that most rugby people will support a team in which they feel that they have a stake, I plead guility.

League and Union are just about on parity in terms of junior and senior numbers and supporters on the northern beaches.

The parallel to the ARC is non-existent, in that case grass roots had no say at all - everything was imposed from above. The northern Sydney team played at Gosford, so people in the north of Sydney didn't get involved, why should need no explanation. The southern Sydney team played at North Sydney Oval, so very few people from either northern or southern Sydney got involved - again no explanation needed.

Describing everyone who lives on the northern beaches and the north shore as insular is an interesting generalisation. I'm not sure it's completely accurate either.

I'm really confused as to now that things seem to be taking shape reasonably well, we have people coming up with all sorts of reasons why it won't work. If people can't travel less than 30 mins to watch 3T, they don't deserve a team and we might as well shut up shop, admit we're a diminishing niche sport and get Foxtel to televise the GPS 1sts every week instead.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

With some trepidation I venture this: crowd numbers are almost totally irrelevant to the success of this idea.
Pay TV content is the driver of $$$ in AFL and NRL.
If the success of this comp is ultimately determined by reference to crowds I think you guys need to prepare yourselves for a let down. I cannot ever see this becoming tribal in a league sense - at best you will get a proportion of supporters floating over from the Shute Shield clubs involved.
In order to succeed this comp needs to answer 2 requirements: Fox need to get something in terms of revenue from it and the S15 franchises and ultimately the Wallabies need to see some cannon fodder produced.
The potential difficulty comes with the first side of the equation (leaving aside the sources of funding for the self sufficient teams).

 

[Quick Hands]

With some trepidation I venture this: crowd numbers are almost totally irrelevant to the success of this idea.
Pay TV content is the driver of $$$ in AFL and NRL.
If the success of this comp is ultimately determined by reference to crowds I think you guys need to prepare yourselves for a let down. I cannot ever see this becoming tribal in a league sense - at best you will get a proportion of supporters floating over from the Shute Shield clubs involved.
In order to succeed this comp needs to answer 2 requirements: Fox need to get something in terms of revenue from it and the S15 franchises and ultimately the Wallabies need to see some cannon fodder produced.
The potential difficulty comes with the first side of the equation (leaving aside the sources of funding for the self sufficient teams).

I agree with your central point that pay TV content will be the driver. No doubt that Foxtel will have a big say in terms of how many teams and where they are placed. I suspect this will be why we end up with 4 teams in Sydney - a large proportion of Fox subscribers reside in Sydney and Melbourne.

However, if we do it right I see no reason why we can't get some well-supported clubs established at 3T level. It will take time and I think that the Pulveriser's initial estimation of 5 years is about right. Hopefully rugby can make the arrangement work for us as well as providing content for Fox.

As an example, I've spent the last few years ignoring 20/20 cricket in the hope that it would go away. Hands junior pestered until I took him to the Sixers v Thunder match at the SCG last week and it was a good night. We'll be back tomorrow night and for the 3rd match as well. I gather that this year is the first time people have got behind the Big Bash in numbers and this is its third year.

I think the majority of rugby people have been calling for a 3rd tier for some time. Let's take advantage of it and make it work for us. Get our SS club behind a JV and get to the games - we might even enjoy ourselves.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

However, if we do it right I see no reason why we can't get some well-supported clubs established at 3T level. It will take time and I think that the Pulveriser's initial estimation of 5 years is about right. Hopefully rugby can make the arrangement work for us as well as providing content for Fox.

I wonder whether fox needs to attract new subscribers to justify its involvement or whether its about providing more content for existing subscribers or whether there is some other metric.

 

[Dave Beat]

The other thing about brookvale is that you'd be competing with a more strongly leaguey based populace. Its the last bastion of league in the northern region of sydney afterall. Most would not support rugby.

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RF - you'll be very surprised here, there is a very strong following on the peninsular.

 

[Quick Hands]

I wonder whether fox needs to attract new subscribers to justify its involvement or whether its about providing more content for existing subscribers or whether there is some other metric.

I think they just want content. They could put this on Thursday night live from 7pm with a 30 minute talkfest, followed by the game and then straight in to another 30 minute show at the end.

All summer the diehards will be able to watch every game of AFL and NRL from 2013 replayed on Fox.

 

[Drew]

If you want proof the nrl don't care about crowds only ratings, just look at a any Monday night crowd, or the fact the Olympic stadium gets most games when the crowds they get there would look good at any other venue. That being said, the fields they use have to be broadcast friendly. Watched a semi last year at manly oval and the abc set up their tower right in front of the paying customers. That could be budgetary, hopefully if manly oval does get games fox is there with strategically placed cameras and stedicams on segways. We'll see.

 

[Lee Grant]

I think they just want content. They could put this on Thursday night live from 7pm with a 30 minute talkfest, followed by the game and then straight in to another 30 minute show at the end.

My understanding is they want it to lead into the Rugby HQ show.
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[Kenny Powers]

I think to be honest you have to say that Foxtel's involvement in the third tier is charity born out of sympathy for the ARU's balance sheet.

It's one live game a week, just one yes just one despite all the channels they have at their disposal. Based on that it has little or no strategic or marketing value for Foxtel.

If you are going to use 20 20 Big Bash as a type of benchmark, what Cricket Australia did that was very smart when they sold their TV rights they insisted that it be shown on free to air TV along with the Ryobi Cup. Grass roots impact????

One live game a week on Foxtel will keep the 3rd tier a niche sport and reinforce the rugby sterotype and will not grow the grass roots. Have to get it on free to air even if is a Gem or Mate Channel in addition to Foxtel.

Why not a Wednesday evening game like the old Panasonic Cup League had, find a void in the TV schedule and try to fill it.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I think to be honest you have to say that Foxtel's involvement in the third tier is charity born out of sympathy for the ARU's balance sheet.

You do realise, Kenny, that Foxtel is 50% owned by Newscorp? "Charity"? "Sympathy"? Old Rupert's gears must be slipping a few cogs.
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