2012 Rugby Championship Round 4 Game 2 Australia vs Argentina - 15 Sep

[daz]

If you are referring to the discussion on centres, McCabe is 24, Harris 24, Tapuai 23.

They are plenty old enough, with enough years at provincial level.

I wasn't specifically referring to those guys but I guess they fall into the discussion point.

I'm really thinking about the fact that a lot of of younger guys who came into the team circa 2007, like Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor), Beale, Cooper, etc have really hit a flat line in regards development. In fact, there is an argument to be made that they have gone backwards.

Those players I have named are talented and have made a significant impact over the last few years. Now they are really back in the pack.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that they have all hit a wall. Is this due to starting early and not being equipped with a bag full of tricks to fall back on? Cooper and Beale were attacking machines 2 years ago, now it appears that the opposition have figured them out and they have no response.

Sorry, I'm probably making a hash of this, but I wonder if guys like Shipperly, Taps, Hooper, Phipps, etc will hit the same wall? Are we teaching them enough to break through the wall and is a single, consistent and good S15 season in 2012 enough schooling to promote them into the Test arena?

 

[Loki74]

Taps in for Fainga'a would be ideal, I think Fainga'a should be relegated down the pecking order, both for the Reds and the Wallabies. I think the problem is, there have been no outstanding 12's this season at S15 or Wallaby level.
McCabe whilst doing an admirable job, is not the long term solution at this stage, but if he continues to improve like he has, he could very well develop into our long term 12, much like Timani is doing. I am also not sold on O'Connor as the heir apparent at 12.
I think Harris deserves an opportunity to show his worth or lack of, as he has been solid at 12 for the Reds and showed his potential worth in a few games, where he was far better than just solid. The Scotland game was a bum fight and Harris can't be judged on that performance and his only other chances have been 5 or ten minute cameos, hardly enough time to show your wares.
In saying all of that, I fully understand why Deans has selected McCabe, but it makes a mockery of his selection process regarding match fitness and returning from injury. McCabe has certainly earnt the right for selection as a result of the Welsh series, but so did Barnes. I think McCabes lay off was a wasted opportunity by Deans to trial other options at 12. It seems Deans is so sold on McCabe at 12, he would rather keep McCabes jersey warm for him, rather than see if there are better options and build further depth at 12. I am not saying it will be the same result, but McCabe has been put into a similar boat as Horne by Deans.

Whereas Horne has just been put in a boat.

 

[ACT Crusader]

daz - the last time JOC (James O'Connor) got any decent rugby under his belt he was playing pretty well. I don't htink he's hit the wall per se, but that he's been hit hard with injuries. Cooper still looks tentaive post WC. His best weapon is standing flat and taking the ball to the line. We've only seen glimpses of that since the injury.

Beale and Barnes on the other hand are in very poor form and low in confidence when they have the ball in their hands. That is very different from years prior.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The young guns "hitting the wall" development wise is an interesting concept.

The Pathway to Gold literature kind of suggests that the High Performance Unit (HPU) "graduate" their National Gold Squad and Academy charges around 21 years old. The previously intensive and closely monitored skills development regime is then replaced with whatever is available at the Club, Franchise and/or Wobs level, with an expectation that the athlete in question will take responsibility for their own development.

The developmental advantage or "inertia" gathered from several years of nurturing from the HPU could continue to give that player a comparative advantage for a year or two. After that time the athlete could "hit the wall" developmentally, if they haven't taken some responsibility for their own ongoing development.

Conversely other players can catch up and pass the previous rock stars skill wise, if they apply themselves fully and take responsibility for their own ongoing and continuous development.

 

[Groucho]

I'll just lob a little hand grenade here then step back from the kill zone.

We seem to be counter-arguing a couple of fairly significant points here. One is the argument that we are feeding some of our bright young talent into the Test arena before they have time to develop rugby "nous" and the experience to know what to do and when to do it.

On the other side, we are also saying that some of the young guys who are relatively new to first class rugby should be given a chance, based on the premise that they have had a good S15 in 2012.

I have no doubt that most of the young guys we are talking about will develop into good test players, but are we sacrificing short term fixes for long term gains?

I recognise we have what may be called a shallow depth pool (especially with injuries forcing our hand) so I really don't know what the answer is.

Thoughts?

Good post.

I for one firmly believe that after the headlong development of the last couple of years, we now have the resources to develop players more conventionally. The fact that we can be missing ten first-choice players and yet still not have to pick our best young prospects is a good thing, not a bad thing. Some of them might thrive from the pressure, but they may not and may fall by the wayside. Rob Horne is an example of a player who seems to have gone down that path.

Arguably, one of the reasons our current players seem less skilled is that many of them were forced by circumstances into front-line duties in the test arena where they have to win at all costs.

Let players like Tapuai, Jones, Neville and Pyle bide their time and force their way in with excellent performances in Supe rugby and then off the bench, not because they've had a few good games and we therefore feel forced to gamble with them and their futures. It won't take long. A dominant, Hooper-style provincial season would see any one of them in the team quickly enough.

 

[daz]

The young guns "hitting the wall" development wise is an interesting concept.

The previously intensive and closely monitored skills development regime is then replaced with whatever is available at the Club, Franchise and/or Wobs level, with an expectation that the athlete in question will take responsibility for their own development.

The developmental advantage or "inertia" gathered from several years of nurturing from the HPU could continue to give that player a comparative advantage for a year or two. After that time the athlete could "hit the wall" developmentally, if they haven't taken some responsibility for their own ongoing development.

Conversely other players can catch up and pass the previous rock stars skill wise, if they apply themselves fully and take responsibility for their own ongoing and continuous development.

Yeah, this is the kind of thing that I am trying (badly) to get across. It is almost as if Beale, Cooper, etc have said to themselves "wow, I am a fucking awesome player and I am really ripping it up out there", then have stopped applying themselves. The result is that others with less talent but a higher work ethic have equalled or surpassed them.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yep, we talked about Grey in the those terms back then (since we had Horan to compare to), but he actually had a good short pass and pretty good short kicking game.

good memory - because I think he put a grubber through in Brisbane for Roff to score? The interesting thing about that grubber was that he waited until he was in the opposition (as opposed to his own) 22 to try it.

 

[daz]

Good post.

I for one firmly believe that after the headlong development of the last couple of years, we now have the resources to develop players more conventionally. The fact that we can be missing ten first-choice players and yet still not have to pick our best young prospects is a good thing, not a bad thing. Some of them might thrive from the pressure, but they may not and may fall by the wayside. Rob Horne is an example of a player who seems to have gone down that path.

Arguably, one of the reasons our current players seem less skilled is that many of them were forced by circumstances into front-line duties in the test arena where they have to win at all costs.

Let players like Tapuai, Jones, Neville and Pyle bide their time and force their way in with excellent performances in Supe rugby and then off the bench, not because they've had a few good games and we therefore feel forced to gamble with them and their futures. It won't take long. A dominant, Hooper-style provincial season would see any one of them in the team quickly enough.

Thank you Groucho. That is exactly what I was trying to say, and you said it better than me.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yeah, this is the kind of thing that I am trying (badly) to get across. It is almost as if Beale, Cooper, etc have said to themselves "wow, I am a fucking awesome player and I am really ripping it up out there", then have stopped applying themselves. The result is that others with less talent but a higher work ethic have equalled or surpassed them.

As you'll see i liked this post but I just wanted to point out that in KB (Kurtley Beale)'s case we're not talking about development we're talking about him succumbing to the enemy we nearly all succumb to: fat.
He struggled with his weight when he was with Tahs (not initially but after a couple of seasons) and then lost about 5-7kgs in his last season there and thats when everyone decided he could really be an elusive runner at fullback.
I don't want to be too hard on the guy - its not like Im twiggy - but when i saw him run out against the ABs in Sydney I thought "geez he's put on 5 kgs" - i hadnt seen him in the flesh for a while.
Unfortunately he played like he'd put on 7kgs - and the Daggster made him look like he was carrying every one of them just with his very slight in and away.
I would say that the loss of weight in the period I am talking about is what transformed KB (Kurtley Beale) from one of the team to a pretty electrifying runner.
Bearing that in mind you'd think that common sense and man management would have given him that insight if he didnt get it himself. It's hard to believe it didn't dawn on him that he was a player who played better 5 kgs down than trying to get bigger. But if it didnt where was the headspace management telling the bloke the realities of his optimum playing weight.
i accept that a long stint on the sideline can be tough but that's the difference between a pro and schoolboy who's being paid.
But again: where was the oversight from the coaching staff and when he turned up to camp weighing too much why wasn't he just sent home - as happened to some league player in the last few years.
I cant help thinking that KB (Kurtley Beale)'s "lack of condition" is the product of 2 things: player power gone wild and a lack of stringent specific goals being set for players with suitable punishments if they are not met. Despite being out of condition KB (Kurtley Beale) has been paid $20k for 2 tests he was not in condition to play.

 

[Lee Grant]

I thought we used our props pretty well on Saturday.

Robbo 40 minutes, Slipper just under 50, Alexander just over 70.

I don't think the commentators have worked out why props are taken off before oranges. Now and then they can be having a mare in the scrums but otherwise they come off early to spread the 160 minutes between the 3 of them, though one always gets a lot of time. They can come back on if there has been been an injury and an Al Baxter "cramp" usually suffices.

Nor have commentators worked out why players are replaced early in the 2nd half and not gone on immediately after the break. The bench players have been in the sheds listening to the sprays of the coaches and may as well take the opportunity for a warm up that the other fellows can't take.

I'm one who is pleased that Douglas has been picked to play to replace Timani. He played well for the Tahs this year and seems have to worked out where and when to participate better. Simmons has had a good run; he will be back, but it is well that Deans is looking at someone else. I think Douglas is a harder player than Simmons and a better TH lock in the scrums. Don't know that he is quite as deft with his hands in the lineout on both sides of the park (with the inside hand changing) as Simmo is, but let's see.

It's interesting that more people are talking about good scrummaging TH locks these days. There's a reason for it: even B. Freddy can appreciate that a THP needs more support in the era of the power hit, an ugly episode in the history of our game.

We need some good alternatives for TH lock against the Lions, whose coach must be enjoying some of the re-runs of the two Bledisloe matches this year. There's a few other matters that are probably causing a chuckle, such as the Mickey Mouse Oz kicking game, kick receptions and the absence of passing skills.

But I digress.
.

 

[East Coast Aces]

Selection has been the biggest talking point for the last month. IMO because deans has never got it right.

During our rein of awesomeness under McQueen, didn't we have an independent selection panel? How did this work and when was it changed?


Perhaps this is something for another thread?

 

[Bowside]

Barnes is the second distributor in this team

Having a second distributor doesn't mean you shouldn't also have a distributor at 12.

Look at the all blacks, they have carter as a first distributor as well as dagg and smith who are also both 'distributors'. But they never pick a 12 who can't distribute, Nonu and SBW both have excellent passing games, and regularly run into space before throwing a wide pass.

I love McCabe's hardness and determination, but I don't think he is the best man for the job at 12. He may well prove me wrong in the future, but in any case, I don't think starting in test matches is the right place to develop a passing game - it should already be there before he is picked.

 

[Bowside]

Whilst I think Slipper and Robbo are our best starting props at the moment, I dont think deans could justify dropping alexander after his strongish game last week.

I do like the way we have started rotating the props so as to spread the game time. It makes a mockery of the rules, but everyone does it so we should as well.

 

[Braveheart81]

Selection has been the biggest talking point for the last month. IMO because deans has never got it right.

During our rein of awesomeness under McQueen, didn't we have an independent selection panel? How did this work and when was it changed?

Perhaps this is something for another thread?

The coach has always been part of a selection panel as Robbie Deans is now.

Given the amount of different opinions there are here about who should be selected and most of those opinions relate to the few positions that are clearly our weakest, I don't think Robbie Deans has done too bad a job with selections.

With injuries and multiple similar options in our weakest positions, I don't think there is any one right answer in who should have been selected for each test.

 

[Braveheart81]

I do like the way we have started rotating the props so as to spread the game time. It makes a mockery of the rules, but everyone does it so we should as well.

Mate. Needing to come off for a pie is a valid injury for a front rower.

 

[BPC]

Mate. Needing to come off for a pie is a valid injury for a front rower.

The Growden interchange rule?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

A fitting recognition for our nearly former Chief Rugby Correspondent.

 

[Paradox]

I love McCabe's hardness and determination, but I don't think he is the best man for the job at 12. He may well prove me wrong in the future, but in any case, I don't think starting in test matches is the right place to develop a passing game - it should already be there before he is picked.

What passes this year, at either S15 or Test level, has McCabe not made or should have made?

 

[Scotty]

Yeah, this is the kind of thing that I am trying (badly) to get across. It is almost as if Beale, Cooper, etc have said to themselves "wow, I am a fucking awesome player and I am really ripping it up out there", then have stopped applying themselves. The result is that others with less talent but a higher work ethic have equalled or surpassed them.

You could argue that Beale hasn't been driving himself, but I think that is unfair on Cooper who has managed to improve defensively whilst recovering from a serious knee injury.

 

[TOCC]

Yeah im not sure you can really put Beale and Cooper in the same category, Beale's form at international level has definitely regressed.. Whereas Quade seems about the same place he was last year, maybe a bit more composed/lacking arrogance and slightly better defence.