Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

It (the company based, partly professional Top League) is being replaced with a fully professional three tier league from next season.

Teams placement in this year's competition will decide which tier they're in next year. Functionally the teams will be the same but their names and stadium will be based on geography rather than company. Additionally, I believe standards are being set in regards to team structures, salary caps, stadiums (and pitches) etc, which didn't previously exist.

Its a similar to the transition Japanese soccer undertook a couple decades ago.

I had a brain fade as new there was a new competition but I actually assumed already starting this season as never followed all Japanese teams that closely. Got it - starts next season. Like I said not really got Into the detail on this.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Up late and late night news on Sua'ali'i set to make his nrl debut - I just hope we finally get the shit hot regional competition we deserve so players like him can be lured back to play for the wallabies in a few years

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Why do you say that WCR?

Because this season is it's final edition. From next season the traditional corporations league nature of Japanese will be relegated to being at best the 3rd division.

 

[Dan54]

Because this season is it's final edition. From next season the traditional corporations league nature of Japanese will be relegated to being at best the 3rd division.

That's going to be real interesting to WRC, like RN I had more or less forgotten about it as I thought it was meant to be this or last year. It will be interesting to see how many players they take from Aus and NZ. I know JR stated they were hoping that top players may end up on big money to encourage young Japanese kids to see rugby as a way to get good $s'

 

[Rugbynutter39]

That's going to be real interesting to WRC, like RN I had more or less forgotten about it as I thought it was meant to be this or last year. It will be interesting to see how many players they take from Aus and NZ. I know JR stated they were hoping that top players may end up on big money to encourage young Japanese kids to see rugby as a way to get good $s'

Yes I now also realise why this new japanese league could be a threat to player drain and also how the new top division could be an even higher standard the current top league. I never really understood the 3 tiers proposed and still probably have some reading to do to understand what is proposed vs what is currently in place. Google is my friend to find out more detail.

 

[dru]

But it isn’t going to be 3 Aus sides in with the NZ sides they put that to bed last year

Wishful thinking and relying of NZRU largesse. Denial of where Super takes us. Much better a comp that has scope for development and that we can direct in the absence of competing and contradictory desires of NZ.

The big error was falling for the trap of the temporary success that Super brought without predicting the inevitable fall, the first time. Foolish to repeat that level of error.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

That's going to be real interesting to WRC, like RN I had more or less forgotten about it as I thought it was meant to be this or last year. It will be interesting to see how many players they take from Aus and NZ. I know JR stated they were hoping that top players may end up on big money to encourage young Japanese kids to see rugby as a way to get good $s'

Originally it was supposed to launch this year. But then Covid happened.

 

[hoggy]

Hoggy

A mate, more of a general sports fans, but who has a keen interest in rugby mapped out what he thinks will work for rugby in Australia for the treble as he puts it. Growth in Rating, Players, Media coverage.

His background as its somewhat important, early 50's, owns a mixed business that has some media, some transport and some retail. Turnover roughly 2.5 million over his business. A keen sports fan holds an MBA. Cricket is his first sport, with both league & rugby his second choice he likes both.

We need another 11 Australia teams.

Don't panic, we have 5 teams we need 3 more decent teams, and 8 good teams that play in second division.

Don't panic yet.

Both divisions play at the same time over two rounds.

After two rounds we have a top four and bottom four in both divisions.

The top four in the first division play a final series, then play in a champion league against NZ, Japan & ??? He says a local final series is more important than the champions league as all codes have the grand final as the number one game of the year,

The bottom 4 in division 1 play the top 2 in division 2, so six sides, over two rounds with the top four staying in Div 1.

This system he says creates interesting or sorry meaningful games between 26 to 28 weeks i.e. not too taxing similar to league in games and every game the result is important.

Also he says the beauty of the bottom 4 V the top 2 is only competitive teams will be in the top 8 first division.

Cough. cough it does or could do with private investors like a mining guy or a banker or a big accounting firm.

Funding the second division over 14 weeks is the issue.

On the funding he believes that having 8 games a week over 14 weeks, then final series then a champions league and a 3 games a week for 12 weeks should generate enough to fund the bottom 8 teams.

I had never through of this approach myself, on the surface its seems to have merit. He also believes many PI players would jump at this, of this I am not sure.

Hoggy, your thoughts.

Half,

I think in a perfect world this would definitely be an option, I'm just not sure how you'd get there. If only we could turn the clock back, but in saying that, why did we not make those decisions back then.

As this blog testifies, there's hardly consensus moving forward. I'm just not sure rugby knows what it wants to be in Australia.

Just like jumping into bed with a TT league, which would essentially only have about 40% Australian content, forever highlighting its international point of difference that 99% of Aussies don't appear to give a shit about.

Part of my thinking behind a better domestic presence for rugby is the certainty in support it can give the game.

To often in the past, we've been all to willing to abruptly invest 100% of our energies to some foreign entity that will somehow save our rugby, yet locally would need a GPS to reach the suburb down the road.

I just believe a greater emphasis on the domestic game will go a long way to correcting that imbalance.

 

[Rebel man]

Where super rugby got to is i actually enjoy super rugby Au more then the crap lopsided super rugby fifteen with games out of mind out of sight ( in South Africa) and lop sided contests.

I expect I will enjoy trans Tasman but only if they make more effort for level playing fields (whether that be RA allowing imports to play for oz sides and nzru taking a more open borders policy to allow nz players to play for other trans Tasman sides as just feel this would make for a more healthy competition less constrained by borders). Ie I would also like to see other Asian sides eventually join trans Tasman competition but that would need this open borders policy imo for this to happen.

Lop sided games happen no matter the comp you have played 3 games and conceded 2 cricket scores

 

[Rebel man]

Wishful thinking and relying of NZRU largesse. Denial of where Super takes us. Much better a comp that has scope for development and that we can direct in the absence of competing and contradictory desires of NZ.

The big error was falling for the trap of the temporary success that Super brought without predicting the inevitable fall, the first time. Foolish to repeat that level of error.

Governance issues in the game weren’t down to super rugby but anyway

 

[Rebel man]

And there's significant desire among players for a shorter season overall. Then there's the likely reckoning coming in the form of increased legal action around player welfare because. Well, Rugby isn't Soccer.

Players always want to play less until they realise that means getting paid less

 

[Braveheart81]

But we could easily play 24 with finals and maybe a few weeks in a champions league and still be doing 10-12 weeks less. Also one of the benefits of the longer season season is you expose more of your squad to game time keeping players engaged and not looking to leave for game time

Our biggest challenge with a longer season is the timing. With the current schedule, an extended season would see finals coinciding with test rugby which wouldn't work for anyone.

We also need to remember that European rugby not only has larger squads but generally has the test teams spread across more sides. A Wallaby squad missing from the Super Rugby sides leaves a far bigger dent than it does on the French Top 14 or English Premiership.

The impact it has on Scotland, Ireland and Wales would be far closer to what we feel and the Pro 12/14 is a shorter comp (closer to what Super Rugby was).

 

[Braveheart81]

Wishful thinking and relying of NZRU largesse. Denial of where Super takes us. Much better a comp that has scope for development and that we can direct in the absence of competing and contradictory desires of NZ.

The big error was falling for the trap of the temporary success that Super brought without predicting the inevitable fall, the first time. Foolish to repeat that level of error.

We need to consider the same thing with Super Rugby AU though.

Super Rugby took a long time to fail. I would bet that a 5 team comp has a far shorter shelf life before people start losing interest.

 

[Rebel man]

Our biggest challenge with a longer season is the timing. With the current schedule, an extended season would see finals coinciding with test rugby which wouldn't work for anyone.

We also need to remember that European rugby not only has larger squads but generally has the test teams spread across more sides. A Wallaby squad missing from the Super Rugby sides leaves a far bigger dent than it does on the French Top 14 or English Premiership.

The impact it has on Scotland, Ireland and Wales would be far closer to what we feel and the Pro 12/14 is a shorter comp (closer to what Super Rugby was).

Wales has what 3 pro sides same with Scotland Ireland 4 and what Italy 2

Yeah look there are some logistical issues no doubt, Saturday 31st of July would be the GF with no byes and a 22 week seasons with no byes the change of the international window to July makes that problematic but if they have a bye or two finals end in mid august

 

[Braveheart81]

Wales has what 3 pro sides same with Scotland Ireland 4 and what Italy 2

Yeah look there are some logistical issues no doubt, Saturday 31st of July would be the GF with no byes and a 22 week seasons with no byes the change of the international window to July makes that problematic but if they have a bye or two finals end in mid august

And they do have to play several matches without their test players so need the larger squads. Some of this is early in the year when the End of Year Internationals are on and some late in their season when the Six Nations is on.

It seems really unlikely we're going to find another test schedule that doesn't have us basically playing test rugby from July through to November.

On that basis I don't see how we can finish our main competition once test rugby starts. If we tried to move half the Rugby Championship to the start of the year then we would have issues with South Africa and Argentina needing players released from Europe. That would be the kind of option you'd need so you could continue your season through the June internationals and then have a window to play finals with all the test players in August.

I think it is far more likely that we conclude Super Rugby by June and then find something to play during the test season that has better commercial outcomes than the NRC did. Maybe this is where we have State or Origin or similar.

 

[Rebel man]

Our biggest challenge with a longer season is the timing. With the current schedule, an extended season would see finals coinciding with test rugby which wouldn't work for anyone.

We also need to remember that European rugby not only has larger squads but generally has the test teams spread across more sides. A Wallaby squad missing from the Super Rugby sides leaves a far bigger dent than it does on the French Top 14 or English Premiership.

The impact it has on Scotland, Ireland and Wales would be far closer to what we feel and the Pro 12/14 is a shorter comp (closer to what Super Rugby was).

It’s 21 games as opposed to 22. Still play in the European champions cup as well. If you push the Rugby Championship back by a week you can fit it all in

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It’s 21 games as opposed to 22. Still play in the European champions cup as well. If you push the Rugby Championship back by a week you can fit it all in

I can understand your argument. At one point I would have agreed with you on a full home and away schedule of 22 games. But my position has evolved thanks largely to the ever mounting body of work around player welfare particularly that of CTE and other traumatic brain injury conditions related to the nature of collision sports. And while we can never truly eliminate them things like work load and exposure can help mitigate. This is why I've walked back the number of games to 16-18 games a season.

It's something I think will be a major issue in the near future in the NH as well. And not only just from player welfare. I think the soon to be Pro16 will need to decide it's perfect season pretty soon with the addition of 2 more SA squads as well as the potential inclusion of the Jaguares. A big complaint about the Pro 14 has been the significant fall away in quality during both the November and 6Ns Test windows. Which has directly impacted upon the leagues ability to leverage its overall quality when at full strength to the broader marketplace. Now with 16 potentially 17 teams they will need to decide whether a shorter schedule featuring their best possible talent is more beneficial than the status quo. Shorter season of high quality Rugby are worth at least as much as drawn out seasons with varying quality.

 

[Braveheart81]

Clearly the number of games per player can't increase.

If we play a 22 game season then we still need players sticking to a maximum of around 15 games of that season. Test players are already at the maximum limit over a year.

I'm still not sure how we fit in that longer season before the July test window.

 

[hoggy]

Clearly the number of games per player can't increase.

If we play a 22 game season then we still need players sticking to a maximum of around 15 games of that season. Test players are already at the maximum limit over a year.

I'm still not sure how we fit in that longer season before the July test window.

Or how much longer will the Southern tours continue, already speculation France will be understrength. Something has to give sooner or later, what is the appetite up North for them to continue.

That would free a month in the schedule, and yes its a revenue boost for us. But how much revenue has it cost in suppressing your domestic value.

 

[Braveheart81]

Or how much longer will the Southern tours continue, already speculation France will be understrength. Something has to give sooner or later, what is the appetite up North for them to continue.

That would free a month in the schedule, and yes its a revenue boost for us. But how much revenue has it cost in suppressing your domestic value.

I can't see them ending.

They are the quid pro quo for the End of Year Tours that generate a lot of money for the Northern Hemisphere unions. This year will be tricky again with COVID but I expect from 2022 they will be back to normal.

I would argue it has not suppressed our domestic value anywhere near as much as the revenue it generates.

There is absolutely no way any SANZAAR country is going to try and get rid of them. They are essential for their finances.