Where to for Super Rugby?

[neilc]

Well "IF" Twiggy can make some success with WSR in 2019 and RA agree to a super rugby model that does little more than offer a round robin format you can bet there will be a queue of oz Super Rugby sides wanting to join Twiggy ball - especially if they get Japanese and Fiji side. So I seriously hope Twiggy Ball can be successful to present another option but given we don't know much about what it will look like and sides involved this is a big unknown at this point as launching a new competition is no easy feat especially when will only involve 1 oz side (at least initially).

But can Oz Super Rugby sides actually elect to join another comp? I thought that the remaining teams were essentially controlled by RA in terms of where they play/funding etc. If they were to join WSR wouldn't they lose their funding and therefore their players?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

But can Oz Super Rugby sides actually elect to join another comp? I thought that the remaining teams were essentially controlled by RA in terms of where they play/funding etc. If they were to join WSR wouldn't they lose their funding and therefore their players?

So assumption is by joining WSR Twiggy would fund the team as he does with others with revenues from WSR contributing to the funding (but yes early years would be making big loss) and with those who play for Wallabies eligible for RA top ups as they have confirmed via force players eligible for wallabies that as long as oz side joins WSR would still be eligible for wallabies.

 

[kiap]

I thought that the remaining teams were essentially controlled by RA in terms of where they play/funding etc.

Nah. The teams are controlled by the Super Rugby contract they're bound into. They're not owned or controlled by RA …… it is (at least in theory) the other way round, the teams and unions "own" and "control" RA.

The teams don't all have to sign up to another Supe deal after the existing one expires.

Hypothetically speaking, of course. Those running these teams aren't exactly models of success so they'll sign up to whatever they can eke out for another year.

In the meantime, Rugby Australia has to keep their bailout bucket handy and the rugby public are jumping off the ship in droves.

If they were to join WSR wouldn't they lose their funding and therefore their players?

They would lose some funding, the Super funding.

So they might have to find some other funding.

 

[hoggy]

But can Oz Super Rugby sides actually elect to join another comp? I thought that the remaining teams were essentially controlled by RA in terms of where they play/funding etc. If they were to join WSR wouldn't they lose their funding and therefore their players?

I don't think they actually could, but the whole thing has been built on such a flimsy house of cards that if Twiggy does pull of some sort half decent comp next year, it would seriously look like a hungry fox let loose in a locked hen house.

 

[half]

I don't actually believe that soccer is as strong here as many seem to think, it is a game supported mainly be expats.

I have a genuine question, on what you posted. I would like to know, as your response, is very similar if not common among many rugby folk and officials I know.

My question how do you reach such a conclusion and do you actually believe it????????

Why I am making such a fuss is not so much, this particular topic. Its far more we as a code seem too often we have SFA knowledge and understanding of the market place around us. Meaning our Admins have made many errors, often based on poor data and decision making processes.

Almost every sports analysis I am aware of, looks at soccer as some kind of sleeping giant. The giant is awake now but still in it’s baby stage.

AFL have openly and repeated said they are in a full-on fight with soccer for the top sport. They see soccer having a huge future so much so they started a women’s competition and they said in part this was to counter the W-League & the rise of the Matilda’s. AFLX on a small field to again counter soccer and have publicly announced they want to use soccer fields to play AFLX.

Dan if I may share with you the concern both AFL & league have over soccer. A report was prepared roughly three years ago looking at the relationship between players and TV watchers. The report found that across union, league, AFL that the percentage of players who watch the game on TV is around 86%. In soccer its 17%.

The soccer player base is more than AFL, league and union combined and in every age bracket this hold true. If they can lift the player to TV watcher percentage even close to other codes they will dominate ratings.

FFA are working to lift the percentage and league & AFL & cricket are doing things to counter what FFA are doing. Yet we seem to sit idly by.

Back to my main point, all around us things are changing, Netball with a national competition, the new competitions in AFL, Leagues end of year test series with PI nations, soccer is in a state of revolution by the stakeholders to rapidly expand the game.


Dan as I said a genuine question, every other code is preparing and working out ways to slow soccer down, their player base is huge. You say its mostly expats and over stated. My question is how do you reach such conclusions?????? You’re answer could be IMO a key indicator on how our Admins think.

 

[Dan54]

Ok half, I am probably taking my idea from what I have seen at occasional soccer games I attend, generally junior I admit , and I only go because my mate that works for me sons both play. At all the games I have been to I have found the proportion of expats (or perhaps the accents) to be pretty high. Even quite a few of the clubs (around here anyway) seem to be considered (and by themselves) as say Greek, Italian etc etc clubs, which kind of leads me to think it is so. I in no way playing down soccer and it's importance in sport as I do truly believe it is the true world game, and probably is a sleeping giant here (and in NZ) just I not sure I have seen too much evidence it is as big as some say. I know how it surged in NZ during the 80s (and still more play soccer than rugby in NZ) but still seems to rank as a minority sport there for some reason. Same as here, although a lot of people could probably not know to many Wallabies, I don't know anyone personally (apart from the one mate and then I not sure about him) that can name any Socceroos apart from maybe Tim Cahill.

 

[Dan54]

You base this on what, how you feel.

I am so so so so so so so so over rugby folk who brush off what others are doing.

I not brushing soccer off half, not by any means, just giving an opinion on what I see. hell I can see how Aus rugby is gone backwards at the rate of knots too, when I first moved here I really thought it was a pretty strong game.

 

[Dan54]

That thought process doesn't work. The Socceroos weren't making it to the World Cup before the A-League was started.

The Supe is a constricted bowel. Every season it goes on, the more and more shit builds up and compacts. It will waste away what's left of the game's financial base and is twisting the life out of Australian rugby.

The sooner Super Rugby is scrapped (or just goes bust and dies of its own accord) the better.

Weren't they Kiap, hell even NZ made the WC soccer before A league. But what I really meant about hurting Aus rugby by only playing each other I was thinking I truly believe that Wallabies would risk being like soccer, and not really making it out of pool stages in a WC. If you think that is successful , that's great, myself I don't think it will help the game at all. Rugby's main thing it has to combat League/AFL etc is it is an international game, so I not sure scrapping super rugby is going to help. I agree it needs some kind of shake up, but I still not sure a NRC type comp will earn enough $s to keep rugby going. Because that seems to be only alternative unless you want a 4-5 team comp of present Aus teams. I know there is great excitement over what Twiggy may or may not bring, but let's not try and hang our hats on a non existent comp just yet.
All I say is let's all be careful what we wish for!

 

[Slim 293]

That thought process doesn't work. The Socceroos weren't making it to the World Cup before the A-League was started.

A-League or not, if the Socceroos were still having to play against Uruguay to qualify they wouldn't be making World Cups either........

 

[barbarian]

A-League or not, if the Socceroos were still having to play against Uruguay to qualify they wouldn't be making World Cups either....

Yeah that argument by Kiap is flawed on a few levels. I'd argue the 'golden generation' of talent (primarily developed by the NSL, actually) had much more to do with our resurgence than the development of the A-League.

Not that I'm talking the A-League down, but comparing rugby's potential transition from Super Rugby to soccer's transition from the NSL fails on a few fronts. Our clubs aren't drawn on ethnic lines, for starters.
.

 

[Dan54]

on Super Rugby vs Domestic comp.



Playing kiwi teams is meant to make us better.. guess what folks? this year could be the 16th year of not holding the Bled! how has playing kiwi teams made us better???? yet we continue on like halfwits banging our heads against the same wall. Ireland didnt pley kiwi teams all the time to get to #2. its a nonsense argument.

Can I tell you a secret sunnyboys? Before super rugby, and indeed the pacific cup whatever it was called (which was basically started so Aus teams like Qld and NSW played kiwi teams) Do you know how often the wallabies won the Bledisloe cup. It was such a long time when they first won it in early 80s I think, noone actually was sure where it was!! Mate I am old enough to remember the Wallaby teams from the early 70s etc, and take my word for it, regardless of how we dream about the good old days they were not a patch on what we have these days. I remember the team named the woeful Wallabies that really when they struggled to beat some pretty ordinary provincial teams in NZ. I actually think they were beaten by Buller or West Coast os something similar (may of even been a combined team). No sunnyboys Aus rugby really needs players getting experience against NZ and SA teams to remain a force on WR (World Rugby), which it still is regardless of what the doom merchants say!! (Hell here's me an AB supporter defending YOUR rugby team from you!)Maybe there in lies Aus rugby's big problem!
And as for Ireland no they don't play Kiwi teams, but they play a lot of other bloody good players week in and out , from England ,Wales, Scotland ,France etc!! I can't believe you can't see that!

 

[sunnyboys]

Hi Dan54. i am completely aware of our history of "success". it is so intermittent that you could almost assume that the rare moments of success have been flukes - a coincidence of talent. because beyond '84 grand slam, '91 and '99 RWC followed by the Lions win... we haven't been great. we haven't been great whether we were pro or amateur, or whether we played our kiwi neighbours alot or not so often.
what that tells me is that we should feel free to focus on building what the game in this country needs - because history tells us we will have the same patchy levels of success regardless of how we organise ourselves. this 15 year drought is absolutely normal for Australian rugby.
Once that is understood, we can feel free to explore competition designs that work for our needs - knowing that we will probably continue on at about the same level in the Test arena.

the real issue holding us back is money. that is the strongest argument for retaining the status quo.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Thought AUS has played in more world cup finals than any other nation. And not all in the distant past.

I don't think you can "Fluke" that sort of success.

Perhaps we are just a bit better than some think.

Sent from my MHA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[sunnyboys]

whats the split of finals appearance between pre-Super Rugby/professionalism and post?

2 titles from 4 RWC pre-Super Rugby/professionalism vs 2 runners-up form 4 RWC during Super Rugby/professionalism.

that's the total of our 4 finals appearances.

my point is that we are kind of the same whether we are playing Super Rugby or not.

before Super Rugby we had long periods of not holding the Bled. and with Super Rugby we have had a long period of not holding the Bled.

we seem to have the same level of performance regardless.

Test performances shouldn't be held up as the reason for remaining in Super Rugby.

 

[Braveheart81]

What if exiting Super Rugby destroys our test performances and doesn't create a better competition for fans to follow.

My worry is that we just end up with an NRC that goes for 20+ weeks that is going to have just as much trouble attracting fans.

Any non Super Rugby competition is going to need multiple team owners to plough huge dollars into it because the financial metrics of the competition are going to be way worse.

 

[zer0]

Thought AUS has played in more world cup finals than any other nation. And not all in the distant past.

Australia (2-2) are equal with New Zealand (3-1) for RWC final appearances. The other three competitors, at this stage, are England (1-2), France (0-3) and South Africa (2-0). Australia would've only held the record outright between their appearing in 2003 final and England appearing in the 2007 final.

EDIT: To make a quick and shitty (somewhat) visual record:

1987: FRA (1), NZL (1)
1991: AUS (1), ENG (1), FRA (1), NZL (1)
1995: NZL (2), AUS (1), ENG (1), FRA (1), SAF (1)
1999: AUS (2), FRA (2), NZL (2), ENG (1), SAF (1)
2003: AUS (3), ENG (2), FRA (2), NZL (2), SAF (1)
2007: AUS (3), ENG (3), FRA (2), NZL (2), SAF (2)
2011: AUS (3), ENG (3), FRA (3), NZL (3), SAF (2)
2015: AUS (4), NZL (4), ENG (3), FRA (3), SAF (2)

 

[Dan54]

What if exiting Super Rugby destroys our test performances and doesn't create a better competition for fans to follow.

My worry is that we just end up with an NRC that goes for 20+ weeks that is going to have just as much trouble attracting fans.

Any non Super Rugby competition is going to need multiple team owners to plough huge dollars into it because the financial metrics of the competition are going to be way worse.

Basically all I trying to say too BH, I have yet to see someone come up with a comp that will both finance Aus rugby and keep it strong enough to compete. If the Wallabies slip to where they are not competitive in WCs , I fear for rugby in the country!

 

[cyclopath]

Thought AUS has played in more world cup finals than any other nation. And not all in the distant past.

I don't think you can "Fluke" that sort of success.

Perhaps we are just a bit better than some think.

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Finalists

NZ - 4/3
Aus - 4/2
Eng - 3/1
France - 3/0
SA - 2/2 - best finalists obviously!
The beginning of the RWC period coincided with an upswing in Aus team quality (mid-80s onwards) then we stole a march with the introduction of professionalism.

EDIT - Zero beat me to it, apart from my commentary!

 

[Dan54]

whats the split of finals appearance between pre-Super Rugby/professionalism and post?

2 titles from 4 RWC pre-Super Rugby/professionalism vs 2 runners-up form 4 RWC during Super Rugby/professionalism.

that's the total of our 4 finals appearances.

my point is that we are kind of the same whether we are playing Super Rugby or not.

before Super Rugby we had long periods of not holding the Bled. and with Super Rugby we have had a long period of not holding the Bled.

we seem to have the same level of performance regardless.

Test performances shouldn't be held up as the reason for remaining in Super Rugby.

Not sure where you got your figure from sunnyboy, but Wallabies had 1 title before rugby went pro (there was only 3 WCs). And I would strongly suggest that they wouldn't of happened without Qld and NSW playing against NZ/SA teams to help give their players experience against other opposition. It not just play NZ teams , but play teams from other countries that players need.

 

[Dan54]

Finalists


The beginning of the RWC period coincided with an upswing in Aus team quality (mid-80s onwards) then we stole a march with the introduction of professionalism.

EDIT - Zero beat me to it, apart from my commentary!

And probably Cyclo you may agree that the upswing of Aus rugby was certainly helped by Aus rugby state teams playing more teams from other countries?