Where to for Super Rugby?

[Boof1050]

Mind you, have to give them credit they found 800 fans.[/quote]


150 of them are staff members no doubt. 650 left.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

You have to wonder how plans for Super Rugby changes reconcile with what is going on with Twiggy Ball, as RA surely would not be just head in sand ignoring this. Might be WCR idea of expanded NRC as our domestic footprint is what working with Twiggy on per previous dialogue from Castle on this. Castle used the word "supercharged NRC" but unless long form comp rather than current 10 week comp I can't see that as the answer.

I am assuming RA working group still consulting regularly with Twiggy's team as not heard anything on that for a while.

 

[andrewM]

RugbyNutter, I think you give RA too much credit.

I think that what Forrest and Castle have in mind are poles apart - Castle wants WSR/IPRC to be an extension of NRC, Forrest is aspiring for something bigger. IMO, the crowds have shown they are more in tune with what Forrest has in mind than Castle.

As for dialogue between the two camps, it seems to be deathly quiet on that front.

 

[mst]

You have to wonder how plans for Super Rugby changes reconcile with what is going on with Twiggy Ball, as RA surely would not be just head in sand ignoring this. Might be WCR idea of expanded NRC as our domestic footprint is what working with Twiggy on per previous dialogue from Castle on this. Castle used the word "supercharged NRC" but unless long form comp rather than current 10 week comp I can't see that as the answer.

I am assuming RA working group still consulting regularly with Twiggy's team as not heard anything on that for a while.

IMHO the irony around RA's ideas is that the IPRC and a good domestic comp done right would trump Super Rugby.

I think if you have a look at what Half has been banging on about (and I say that with all due respect) the fact that netball has got a comp going, basketball has resurrected itself in to a new comp, A League has culled down to 8 expansion applicants and Twiggy is doing different things which seem to be working. All of these appear to be counter intuitive to all the usual and regular nothing else will work arguments.

Rugby talks lots and thinks lots but really does nothing but talk lots and think lots. IMHO the sad reality is that for every private dollar (investment via ownership) out there that could make the game grand again it represents a threat to the precious Wallabies and RA's control. There are ways to make it work but RA will need to make some big changes - in particular to RA and what it is and does.

 

[Braveheart81]

IMHO the irony around RA's ideas is that the IPRC and a good domestic comp done right would trump Super Rugby.

I think if you have a look at what half has been banging on about (and I say that with all due respect) the fact that netball has got a comp going, basketball has resurrected itself in to a new comp, A League has culled down to 8 expansion applicants and Twiggy is doing different things which seem to be working. All of these appear to be counter intuitive to all the usual and regular nothing else will work arguments.

Rugby talks lots and thinks lots but really does nothing but talk lots and think lots. IMHO the sad reality is that for every private dollar (investment via ownership) out there that could make the game grand again it represents a threat to the precious Wallabies and RA's control. There are ways to make it work but RA will need to make some big changes - in particular to RA and what it is and does.

The reality is that the netball players are price takers. This is the best option they have. The same applies in most cases for Australian basketball and soccer players. Those that can are earning more money offshore. The supply of players and interest is such that they are viable with the quality they have. That said, A League owners have collectively lost over $100m since the comp started. NBL owners have also lost stacks of money.

Rugby needs to decouple our teams from the unions that run the game. We need owners who are willing to lose money running a team without that then threatening money for the grassroots and important structures going bust.

I disagree that allowing more private investment and ownership threatens Rugby Australia and the Wallabies. It would allow them to do far more for the game in this country if they didn't have to foot the wage bill for the bulk of the professional players.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Having now read Wayne Smiths Article "Super Solutions to resist change" in the Australian it confirmed we are a million miles away from NZ in terms of what they want out of Super Rugby vs what Australia needs out of it.

NZ wants round robin format so that all their top NZ sides don't have to play a lower Super Rugby side in quarter finals. But there misses the point, Australians don't want to see a competition that lacks uncertainty of outcome where NZ whip every ones butt every week and having NZ sides top the conference year on year makes for a shit competition that only helps NZ and the All blacks but just further destroys interest in rugby in this country. Super Rugby is just so screwed as NZ don't give a toss that it is creating lack of interest in Super Rugby in oz by their whipping of oz sides as NZ home crowd support is strong etc.

To me this is well summed up by Wayne's comment "it is clear that the Australians are not masters of their own destiny".

If we move to round robin format and don't change anything else we may as well just leave Super Rugby to NZ and piss off and join WSR or do our own NRC domestic thing (but read RA does not have money so better to be chummy with Twiggy and do something in partnership with his team that involves the force). Might hurt wallabies short term but long term only way out of this mess. I mean seriously majority of fans (what is left of them) are saying they are sick of Super Rugby in this country and desperately want change so unless RA realise staying in Super Rugby will soon no longer be a choice and if don't make wholesale change demanded by fans - a lot more fans will walk. How can they possibly not understand just agreeing to round robin format for Super rugby is where we should be invoking our exit clause.....it really has got that bad and maybe they need to start smelling the rotting corpse that is professional rugby.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

AndrewM not so much probably giving RA too much credit but desperate hope they are doing everything in their power to work with Twiggy's camp....as see so much for both parties to benefit if they do.

Yes the deathly quiet on RA working group concept working with twiggy has me worried that not much dialogue is happening. I really hope I am wrong. Very few fans want Super Rugby and want a chance at something better that grows our footprint and gives more oz professional sides and hence content to watch, Super Rugby does not offer that opportunity but working with Twiggy could from a long term perspective.

Professional rugby is at such a critical juncture in this country as to where it could go post 2020 and you only get one Twiggy in your lifetime so pls RA don't stuff it up!!!

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Realistically is I expect we are going to go down the SA route of dumped oz Super Rugby teams joining WSR. You would have to think Brumbies board / executive have sounded out Twiggy's team on possibility of joining WSR to have control over their own destiny then put their destiny in the hands of RA and Super Rugby....

Maybe that is not such a bad option.....

 

[hoggy]

RugbyNutter, I think you give RA too much credit.

I think that what Forrest and Castle have in mind are poles apart - Castle wants WSR/IPRC to be an extension of NRC, Forrest is aspiring for something bigger. IMO, the crowds have shown they are more in tune with what Forrest has in mind than Castle.

As for dialogue between the two camps, it seems to be deathly quiet on that front.

An expanded NRC is the best move, but you can see why Forest is reluctant, I'm not sure that he's aspiring for something bigger, but again the RA want everything their way. they get there Super rugby, a Wallaby Test season and Twiggy pays for the NRC.

And this is why we will never get private money invested, there's so many strings attached its a a dud deal from day one.

The RA talk a lot but nothing is going to change, because they are the ones that need to sacrifice some level of control, and that ain't happening, even when the ships sinking.

And ultimately you need the drive, vision & sacrifice from the top to make change happen, yet they are the most reluctant for that to happen.

 

[sunnyboys]

Newscorp tabloids running with a paywalled story about kiwis getting their way with new super rugby format and oz doing as its told

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

^^^^^ interesting except for the bit about "Oz doing as they're told", as I'm sure we're all aware that each member Union has a veto & can't be "told what to do" by the other members. So if (emphasis on if) NZR have presented a format & if (emphasis again on if) it's likely to be implemented then it's because the other partners have agreed to it (partners being the member Unions & primary btoadcasters). As with the Force fiasco, no way should NZR be cast as the villains in whatever happens next.

 

[sunnyboys]

^^^^
NZR acting in their own interest. The villain here is RA. Stupid stupid decision.

Part of that self interest for NZR is ensuring the oz rugby never gets a competitive edge over it. Super Rugby has ruined pro rugby in oz. so it’s no surprise NZR would prefer the status quo.

 

[Slim 293]

IMO, the crowds have shown they are more in tune with what Forrest has in mind than Castle

What crowds?

 

[gel]

Having now read Wayne Smiths Article "Super Solutions to resist change" in the Australian it confirmed we are a million miles away from NZ in terms of what they want out of Super Rugby vs what Australia needs out of it.

NZ wants round robin format so that all their top NZ sides don't have to play a lower Super Rugby side in quarter finals. But there misses the point, Australians don't want to see a competition that lacks uncertainty of outcome where NZ whip every ones butt every week and having NZ sides top the conference year on year makes for a shit competition that only helps NZ and the All blacks but just further destroys interest in rugby in this country. Super Rugby is just so screwed as NZ don't give a toss that it is creating lack of interest in Super Rugby in oz by their whipping of oz sides as NZ home crowd support is strong etc.

To me this is well summed up by Wayne's comment "it is clear that the Australians are not masters of their own destiny".

If we move to round robin format and don't change anything else we may as well just leave Super Rugby to NZ and piss off and join WSR or do our own NRC domestic thing (but read RA does not have money so better to be chummy with Twiggy and do something in partnership with his team that involves the force). Might hurt wallabies short term but long term only way out of this mess. I mean seriously majority of fans (what is left of them) are saying they are sick of Super Rugby in this country and desperately want change so unless RA realise staying in Super Rugby will soon no longer be a choice and if don't make wholesale change demanded by fans - a lot more fans will walk. How can they possibly not understand just agreeing to round robin format for Super rugby is where we should be invoking our exit clause...it really has got that bad and maybe they need to start smelling the rotting corpse that is professional rugby.

Or just maybe, the Australian teams will stop playing like they know they only have to beat their own countrymen, and start actively striving to top a proper ladder (the same way they used to do).

 

[hoggy]

Or just maybe, the Australian teams will stop playing like they know they only have to beat their own countrymen, and start actively striving to top a proper ladder (the same way they used to do).

But what part of that is going to bring in new fans, moving the deckchairs achieves what?

 

[dru]

NZR predictably navel gazing. RA predictably without vision and sycophantic to the end.

With or without agreement from RA ( and SARU), NZR are killing Aus Super - and in time this does little good for NZ either.

Sad day.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

^^^^

NZR acting in their own interest. The villain here is RA. Stupid stupid decision.



Part of that self interest for NZR is ensuring the oz rugby never gets a competitive edge over it. Super Rugby has ruined pro rugby in oz. so it’s no surprise NZR would prefer the status quo.

Yes we can't blame NZ for acting in their own self interest but yes we can blame RA if they don't try to plot a better path for Australian rugby then just flogging the dead horse that is SANZAAR and Super Rugby where they appear to have less control over its direction for the betterment of Australian Rugby. I see no evidence of any dialogue continuing between RA and Twiggy via the RA working group as incredibly quiet which makes me more concerned.

I hope something comes out that proves my concerns are unfounded but I think we all accept we are a critical juncture as if RA just move the deck chairs with agreement to a new Super Rugby competition with minor changes including round robin format then I think I am off to watch twiggy ball and hope that other oz teams join them like Brumbies etc.

 

[Boof1050]

Yes we can't blame NZ for acting in their own self interest but yes we can blame RA if they don't try to plot a better path for Australian rugby then just flogging the dead horse that is SANZAAR and Super Rugby where they appear to have less control over its direction for the betterment of Australian Rugby. I see no evidence of any dialogue continuing between RA and Twiggy via the RA working group as incredibly quiet which makes me more concerned.

I hope something comes out that proves my concerns are unfounded but I think we all accept we are a critical juncture as if RA just move the deck chairs with agreement to a new Super Rugby competition with minor changes including round robin format then I think I am off to watch twiggy ball and hope that other oz teams join them like Brumbies etc.

Hey Nutter if what you say rings true and the Brumbies join WSR would that mean that we finally get some positive and meaningful feedback from Slim?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Hey Nutter if what you say rings true and the Brumbies join WSR would that mean that we finally get some positive and meaningful feedback from Slim?

I think most rugby supporters hope RA and Twiggy would somehow find a way to work together as most rugby supporters appreciative of any major investment in rugby prepared to be made in rugby in the region. Sure it has to benefit WA first for twiggy but to my mind would be such a wasted opportunity if somehow RA and Twiggy can't align their interests so still hopeful somehow that may happen.

I know there is a lot of bridge building to do but I would also like to see those bridges mended between WA rugby, RA and rest of eastern coast rugby as most rugby supporters are supporters of Australian rugby which includes all states.

 

[barbarian]

The Wayne Smith article isn't that surprising. Of course we're not masters of our SANZAAR destiny - we never have been.

Now RA are faced with an unpalatable choice: run it back with a format that's not working, or blow it up and walk away and hope you can build something with the rubble that remains.

The local comp is fine and would work as the A-League and NBA do - a cheap local imitation of the rich foreign leagues, where a small cohort of fans watch talented youngsters, ageing vets and players who aren't quite good enough for Europe battle it out.

Then our Wallabies fly in for the international season and we maybe pick up our wider fanbase.

So really the situation is the same as it was a year ago, and 600 pages ago. We're between a rock and a hard place.

Fuck.
.