Where to for Super Rugby?

[WorkingClassRugger]

All evidence is that the current set up doesn't pay for itself either. My understanding is the majority of the cash comes from the test matches.

There would be less expense and clearly a demand from fox (I would like to also see FTA) for some rugby content. If you don't have to spend the same you can afford to take a cut in income.

I also think that you would allow the Wallabies to be picked from anywhere in the world until the comp got up and running and would save a fortune on player wages.

Could even do as the NZRU has and form a partnership with one or more clubs in Europe to direct players to in exchange for unfettered access to them for Test matches.

 

[half]

Could even do as the NZRU has and form a partnership with one or more clubs in Europe to direct players to in exchange for unfettered access to them for Test matches.

Thats a smart nay very smart idea.

On another front as competition intensities FFA announced today, all A-League matches, selected FFA Cup matches, Socceroo, and Matilda will be streamed live by Telstra from July I think. No idea what sort of money was involved.

 

[wamberal]

One thing is for sure and certain, if we do not do some clever, innovative, things we will be a niche amateur sport sooner rather than later.

 

[wamberal]

Wam - I was going to respond however I am tired of your condescension.

I do not intend to be condescending, put it down to my advancing years and deteriorating back. Plus a background amongst people who enjoyed a good verbal skirmish.

I do not know how to rephrase my basic point, other than to say that AFAIK there is no evidence that a domestic competition will pay for itself in the short term.


Do you agree? Or do you believe that a domestic competition could break even, assuming of course that there is no Super Rugby, and therefore no other revenue sources to supplement player wages.

We would lose dozens of players to the NH, I reckon, because we could only afford to pay them the sort of money that first grade players earn today. Maybe a bit more.

 

[sunnyboys]

The question of funding is always hard to get accurate information on.

We are told Test rugby is the main money earner for TV rights. We also know that broadcast rights (to Fox at least) are reported at a bundled level - so test plus super plus NRC. It’s impossible from ARU reports and media reports to know how much value is generated by Test and how much by Super.

But if we start at the assumption that the bulk of the value is in Test rugby, you would expect a good portion of that value to remain (assuming a test schedule is maintained after we left Super). You can also assume that Test rugby is paying for/subsidising Super Rugby.

If we were to move to a domestic comp, elements of that would remain. Test rugby would remain of the greatest value to broadcasters and the level below would be subsidised by it.

What we don’t know is how much the overall impact on the total dollars might be. Or what is the loss of any money we might earn as part of SANZAAR when international rights are on-sold.

If Oz were to leave Super, Fox would still be in need of content. In the world of TV live sport is becoming one of the last bastions that can avoid view on demand.

So it’s safe to say there would be money. Would wages fall? Probably. Would the longstanding RUPA revenue share agreement still make sense? Maybe - maybe not.

But the question that always remains is - how few viewers are RA or Fox going to tolerate - how small a crowd do the teams accept to maintain current payments? Does it matter if no one watches, just as long as professionals can be paid and developed for Test rugby?

It’s a bleak outlook

 

[James Pettifer]

I do not intend to be condescending, put it down to my advancing years and deteriorating back. Plus a background amongst people who enjoyed a good verbal skirmish.



I do not know how to rephrase my basic point, other than to say that AFAIK there is no evidence that a domestic competition will pay for itself in the short term.





Do you agree? Or do you believe that a domestic competition could break even, assuming of course that there is no Super Rugby, and therefore no other revenue sources to supplement player wages.



We would lose dozens of players to the NH, I reckon, because we could only afford to pay them the sort of money that first grade players earn today. Maybe a bit more.

There would be a few things that would need to be done

• Select players for the Wallabies outside of Australia
• Local contracts not to include top ups
• Accept that we will lose some players overseas particularly the expensive players
• Needs to be on FTA
• Need to leverage off Twiggy and anyone else who wants Rugby to survive in Australia

And then

• Standards would drop - but I'm not sure we would notice too much. For example, the Rebels have never had a hooker who could actually throw the ball in straight consistently
• The public wouldn't notice as much as we wouldn't be losing to NZ teams every week
• Accept that this is a long term strategic solution and the short term is probably going to suck
• The test matches will have to be used to fund some of the competition

The only other solution I can see is that Super Rugby opens up so that players are picked from any country - otherwise we are just going to keep on losing to NZ teams and interest in Super Rugby will continue to decline further. Sure, we could go down to 3 teams, but this will just continue to kill Rugby in Australia
And realistically, ratings for the SuperRugby matches on Fox are so low that I can't imagine them being very interested in paying much for it in the next broadcast rights.

 

[half]

The question of funding is always hard to get accurate information on.



But the question that always remains is - how few viewers are RA or Fox going to tolerate -

how small a crowd do the teams accept to maintain current payments? Does it matter if no one watches, just as long as professionals can be paid and developed for Test rugby?

No the question by Fox is what does the future look like.

Example both RA & FFA have had falling ratings and crowds this year.

Last year RA had falling rating & FFA had growth in ratings.

Lets look at how RA and our NZ mates reacted in having a rating downturn. We cut back a team, the number of rounds, RA in their eternal wisdom somehow managed to get almost everyone involved in rugby offside. The result this year is ratings continue to fall certainty not recover.

Additionally RA talked up women in rugby.

So how does next year look if you were Fox. Contrast this then to FFA.

FFA this year had a bad year, nay a beyond poor year. So how have FFA reacted and their other stakeholders.

Civil war in many ways, however they are expanding the number of teams to increase product on offer, set up an E-game which has shocked everyone with its success, talked up their FFA Cup, plan to search the world for some key special players, increase marketing. Most of all they are in the process of improving their governance systems and the non FFA stakeholders called in FIFA to force change.

As a final insult to our management they talked Telstra into broadcasting live, all A-League, W-League, Socceroo, Matilda & selected FFA Cup matches.

So you are Fox, which code seems to be reacting to their problems and which code is putting its head in the sand.

Wam this is what I mean by management and having independent voices having positions of power within the running of the game.

 

[Dan54]

But the question that always remains is - how few viewers are RA or Fox going to tolerate - how small a crowd do the teams accept to maintain current payments? Does it matter if no one watches, just as long as professionals can be paid and developed for Test rugby?

It’s a bleak outlook

Seems to work for cricket, interstate games are played in front of seemingly 12 people!

 

[Dan54]

If Oz were to leave Super, Fox would still be in need of content. In the world of TV live sport is becoming one of the last bastions that can avoid view on demand.

World cup next year is on view on demand in NZ on the internet sunny, although finals are live on FTA most pool games can only be brought on the internet. I honestly believe that is going to be the case with a lot of sport in next few years, you will just buy games you want to watch on the Net.

 

[kiap]

Seems to work for cricket, interstate games are played in front of seemingly 12 people!

Foxtel will still broadcast "filler". They won't necessarily be interested in paying much for it, though.

The question is really how much cash overall you can get from TV.

Cricket can pick up the tab easily enough for 200 local salaries and a few domestic flights from their billion dollar TV deal. Plus those local cricket players also earn their keep in the shorter format of the game.

This is not the case in rugby.

Thirty-odd blokes jetting around the world in business class and staying away for weeks on end to play games no one watches (or cares about)?

This scenario has a limited life span.

 

[half]

Wam

Sunnyboys asked an interesting question.

The question of funding is always hard to get accurate information on.


But the question that always remains is - how few viewers are RA or Fox going to tolerate -

It’s a bleak outlook

My reply was to say essentially it was how Fox see the future and then what a code is doing. I contrasted how our management cut costs. FFA said expand.

When I talk about management this is what I am talking about.

No the question by Fox is what does the future look like.

Example both RA & FFA have had falling ratings and crowds this year.

Last year RA had falling rating & FFA had growth in ratings.

Lets look at how RA and our NZ mates reacted in having a rating downturn. We cut back a team, the number of rounds, RA in their eternal wisdom somehow managed to get almost everyone involved in rugby offside.

Today there is an article on what FFA are doing in reaction to their poor year.

So two seasons ago we had a bad year and cut 3 teams provided less Australian content.

Wam, FFA have had a bad year how they have reacted to date is below. My SCREAMING & YELLING point is why is it so different when the dollars are about the same and why do we as a code shrink to save costs.

Wam, compare and contrast two almost identical positions with similar budgets, and look at the differences in management.

We're one week down but it's already been a busy off-season for FFA as the governing body attempts to recover lost audiences.

FFA have recruited the assistance of firms in digital marketing and communications, MKTG and Dentsu Aegis respectively, in order to effectively roll out a new digital marketing strategy.
The plan will involve new websites, streaming services and the development of the 'My Football Live' app to be produced with Telstra. It's an attempt to rectify issues in fans' digital access, which has been rocky at times through poorly-designed apps and a general lack of options.
FFA mentioned "stages one and two" of their "digital network" had already been rolled out. FFA Head of Commercial, Digital and Marketing, Luke Bould, said MKTG would further improve the digital experience of A-League fans.
“FFA is delighted to partner with MKTG uniting their local experience and the power of their track record of innovation around the globe, to football’s new digital network," he said.
"Together, along with the Hyundai A-League and Westfield W-League clubs and Member Associations, we will be able to deliver great experiences to our fans, participants and our commercial partners.”
Yesterday - in a similar deal to the effective marketing of AFL and NRL streaming rights - FFA announced that Telstra would become Australian football's new Technology Partner, allowing the live streaming of A-League, W-League, Socceroos and Matildas matches, either through subscription or a Telstra account.
The appointment of MKTG also follows the recent news that FFA would be splitting ties with their previous advertising firm - that produced campaigns such as 'You've Gotta Have A Team' - in search of a new direction.
The fan engagement strategies are part of a broader attempt to reattract fans to the league, which suffered significant drops in crowd attendances last season. Overall, around 200,000 less people attended matches in 2017/18 than the previous campaign.
In order to ensure the viability of the two new A-League clubs set to be announced in October, FFA have also recruited financial services firm Deloitte, which will attempt to attract wealthy investors to the largely cash-strapped league.
The significant changes occuring throughout Australian football this year are a signifier that FFA admit they've made some mistakes in driving engagement with audiences.
But whether recruiting behind the scenes will be able to spark interest in the competition remains to be seen.

 

[Rebels3]

Half, i love your passion but i can confirm that the Rebels (Denstu), Rugby Australia (IKON), QRU (Khemistry), etc use media agencies like the FFA (Dentsu, MKTG). How much these accounts are worth is an entirely different proposition but it's hardly ground breaking news. You'd find most business's that deal in the millions would have dedicated agencies, unless they are uber big and they decide to invest in their own.

Thank you work prospector account

 

[half]

Half, i love your passion but i can confirm that the Rebels (Denstu), Rugby Australia (IKON), QRU (Khemistry), etc use media agencies like the FFA (Dentsu, MKTG). How much these accounts are worth is an entirely different proposition but it's hardly ground breaking news. You'd find most business's that deal in the millions would have dedicated agencies, unless they are uber big and they decide to invest in their own.

Thank you work prospector account

I think you miss understand the point I was making. I am not suggesting some in rugby as you have pointed out use similar agencies.

The contrast I am talking about is between the two or say three boards.

We panic and say we must cut cost, they analysis and say we must create more revenue.

Its a totally different mindset, and to me anyways shows those running the game are saying, we cannot increase revenue, so we need to cut cost, and we will cut teams.

Whereas other boards are developing ways to increase revenue.

Bring on the revolution and get a few heads on stakes.

 

[charlesalan]

umm no Aussie Super Rugby game at 7.30 tonight - may as well watch some AFL - like everyone else does

 

[Dan54]

Foxtel will still broadcast "filler". They won't necessarily be interested in paying much for it, though.

The question is really how much cash overall you can get from TV.

Cricket can pick up the tab easily enough for 200 local salaries and a few domestic flights from their billion dollar TV deal. Plus those local cricket players also earn their keep in the shorter format of the game.

This is not the case in rugby.

Thirty-odd blokes jetting around the world in business class and staying away for weeks on end to play games no one watches (or cares about)?

This scenario has a limited life span.

Yep fair enough Kiap, you right about cricket getting big coin for Test cricket, wasn't trying to downplay it just pointing out that there are sports on TV with noone watching.
And anyway I probably a rugby tragic who doesn't want to come up with 10 reasons why rugby is fucked in Aus (as seems to be general feeling on this board), but admit I am a glass half full man so tend to look for positives in my game. I also know a lot want to see Super rugby die (and I think rugby ,so they can say told you so), but I love the game, think super rugby is so bloody important to Aus rugby, as well as NZ and SA, so want to see it keep going!

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think where Twiggy's going with marquee players for other teams in his Indo Pacific comp to equal the player talent (and create uncertainty of outcome) is where Super Rugby has failed as NZ clearly superior and for a professional domestic competition that has created an unequal playing field that can't be bridged short term and probably long term as just killing interest in Super Rugby and professional Rugby in oz where leading to massive erosion of fan interest and commercial damage to oz rugby.

Sure the standard might not have been as high for the Force vs Fiji but it was more enjoyable then watching Oz teams play Kiwi teams as had the element of uncertainty of outcome and that first and foremost is what fans need and then a drop down from that a standard that qualifies as sufficiently skilled and entertaining to watch. With teams like Fiji in the competition and Japan in Twiggy ball chance to achieve that imo.

That is why I like Twiggy with his oversight of his Indo Pacific competition where they can direct players to different teams via allocation of marquees. And there lies the problem with Super Rugby where that does not happen as quality Kiwi players won't play for oz sides due to AB eligibility issues. Now I am not saying NZ should change it but if they want Super Rugby to survive with playing oz sides they will have to seriously consider it imo as otherwise we would have to look for other alternatives like Twiggy Ball. NZ needs to look after its own interests as does Oz.

I hear you Dan with your views about Super Rugby being important for Oz and NZ but quite frankly in its present form it is the death knell for oz professional rugby which is because the gap has widened too far and we can't expect fans to just continue to support it on preparedness in years to come gap will close as by then won't be any fans to support oz teams at this rate!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Another Friday done and dusted by 7:30 east OZ TIME with the field left open for nrl and afl to grab those viewing eyes: c’mon Raelene, there’s no future in this

 

[RugbyReg]

umm no Aussie Super Rugby game at 7.30 tonight - may as well watch some AFL - like everyone else does

Not me. I find AFL a really hard watch.

 

[todd4]

Another Friday done and dusted by 7:30 east OZ TIME with the field left open for nrl and afl to grab those viewing eyes: c’mon Raelene, there’s no future in this

Over here in the west the Friday arvo game from NZ starts at 3.30pm and it's all done & dusted by 5.30pm

 

[kiap]

Another Friday done and dusted by 7:30 east OZ TIME with the field left open for nrl and afl to grab those viewing eyes: c’mon Raelene, there’s no future in this

Yep.

I'm not much of an AFL fan, but the Swans' game tonight was a cracker.

(TBF, I wouldn't have tuned into the Supe anyway because I binned my Foxtel six months ago.)