Where to for Super Rugby?
- Thread starter Quick Hands
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kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Nope.
Anecdotal narratives aside, I think you'll find all the indicators are the other way on Super Rugby.
And have been for a long time.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Mate you got me going, i written way way way to much for a single post so I will break down my AFL post.
Wam you sometimes question me about why I continually bang on about our management, maybe the next two or three posts I make will go some way to explaining it.
Sorry all for the size and the rant. But here goes anyway.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Part 1 some history.
The aggressive marketing and lobbying of a sport that only 30 years ago was a curiosity from Victoria, SA, Tasmania and WA, with minimal TV coverage north of the border (I remember when it was only on 7 once every Saturday with Malcolm T Elliott hosting) has changed things. In the expansion of the game it has become a monster that often makes other sports feel not so much inadequate but out-outmanoeuvred in board rooms, on TV, in the regions and in political offices. We've seen huge dollars injected into the sport and parallel to that growth are the huge upswing in egos and political influence.
The likes of Demetriou and McGuire and Kennett flogging their sport, rubbing the huge dollars their game has earned in the faces of more inclusive and more international games has pissed off so many. However with all their strutting and BS their game is still a tiny part of the world sport.
Let's not forget that the AFL has one very potent (and subconsciously xenophobic) attribute, their code is 'Australia's game'. To not like AFL or to find the code's administration objectionable is to many people tantamount to pissing on an Anzac biscuit whilst saying you prefer Marmite and think Donald Bradman was a prick, it's damnably 'unAustralian'.
But some of the propaganda based hype and hubris that comes out of that place is something else to be believed. And they'll use any kind of dirty tactic to discredit others whilst beating their own chest. I don't think it is so much that people hate the sport "AFL" or "Australian Rules Football" (call it what you like). It is more that these people need to be brought back down to earth for their own good. There is clearly a large delusional contingent who follow the sport.
The aggressive marketing and lobbying of a sport that only 30 years ago was a curiosity from Victoria, SA, Tasmania and WA, with minimal TV coverage north of the border (I remember when it was only on 7 once every Saturday with Malcolm T Elliott hosting) has changed things. In the expansion of the game it has become a monster that often makes other sports feel not so much inadequate but out-outmanoeuvred in board rooms, on TV, in the regions and in political offices. We've seen huge dollars injected into the sport and parallel to that growth are the huge upswing in egos and political influence.
The likes of Demetriou and McGuire and Kennett flogging their sport, rubbing the huge dollars their game has earned in the faces of more inclusive and more international games has pissed off so many. However with all their strutting and BS their game is still a tiny part of the world sport.
Let's not forget that the AFL has one very potent (and subconsciously xenophobic) attribute, their code is 'Australia's game'. To not like AFL or to find the code's administration objectionable is to many people tantamount to pissing on an Anzac biscuit whilst saying you prefer Marmite and think Donald Bradman was a prick, it's damnably 'unAustralian'.
But some of the propaganda based hype and hubris that comes out of that place is something else to be believed. And they'll use any kind of dirty tactic to discredit others whilst beating their own chest. I don't think it is so much that people hate the sport "AFL" or "Australian Rules Football" (call it what you like). It is more that these people need to be brought back down to earth for their own good. There is clearly a large delusional contingent who follow the sport.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Part 2
Recent events for all codes.
Society has shifted (for better or worse), being the biggest, strongest, toughest is no longer admired by all. In fact, fear of being sued or failing has led to us (society) being so scared of letting anyone take a risk, despite the fact that risks are often necessary and failures often the best way to learn, even if it hurts.
Coming out of this, overprotective mums don't want their young kids playing the "rough game", or if they do and they get hurt it's no longer 'part of the risk of playing' its seen as negligence and a not fulfilling the duty of care on the behalf of the organisations involved. Its been like this for at least 2 decades (possibly longer), prior to that the attitude was "a bit of rough and tumble would do him some good, toughen him up" RL has been smart enough to pick up on the fact they are losing market share because of this and as a result have changed the game to deal with it. However they have done so to such an extent that its pissed off the rusted on, die hard supporters without really appeasing the "somebody think of the children" brigade and are losing on two fronts now.
There is truth veiled in humour in the form of "bring back the biff" etc that we see getting around. But this is how many of the RL diehards actually feel. But the administrators know there is no future growth pandering to that minority, (despite the fact that these "more beanies than teeth" bogans breed at greater rates than the average population) and as a result you have a watered down version of the game that doesn't prevent injuries but also doesn't allow some of the types of contact that old fans loved to see.
The AFL are reacting by the head bump thing.
Recent events for all codes.
Society has shifted (for better or worse), being the biggest, strongest, toughest is no longer admired by all. In fact, fear of being sued or failing has led to us (society) being so scared of letting anyone take a risk, despite the fact that risks are often necessary and failures often the best way to learn, even if it hurts.
Coming out of this, overprotective mums don't want their young kids playing the "rough game", or if they do and they get hurt it's no longer 'part of the risk of playing' its seen as negligence and a not fulfilling the duty of care on the behalf of the organisations involved. Its been like this for at least 2 decades (possibly longer), prior to that the attitude was "a bit of rough and tumble would do him some good, toughen him up" RL has been smart enough to pick up on the fact they are losing market share because of this and as a result have changed the game to deal with it. However they have done so to such an extent that its pissed off the rusted on, die hard supporters without really appeasing the "somebody think of the children" brigade and are losing on two fronts now.
There is truth veiled in humour in the form of "bring back the biff" etc that we see getting around. But this is how many of the RL diehards actually feel. But the administrators know there is no future growth pandering to that minority, (despite the fact that these "more beanies than teeth" bogans breed at greater rates than the average population) and as a result you have a watered down version of the game that doesn't prevent injuries but also doesn't allow some of the types of contact that old fans loved to see.
The AFL are reacting by the head bump thing.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Part 3 and this is good for us in the AFL loosing control I believe.
AFL is a very well run organisation and probably is the best of all of the sporting codes in this country and has been for a long time. Their ability for so long to effectively exterminate any sporting opposition in Victoria for so long has been impressive.
Compared to other Football codes it has had a steady upward growth with only a few blips along the way.
But you can't keep growing in a small market like Australia. Sooner or later you reach saturation and spend all your time clinging to the top for dear life.
The AFL is getting close to saturation here and now it gets hard for them. They need to expand overseas to grow further and at home they are sitting ducks waiting for other sports to erode their market share.
There are so many parallels in Australian business and sport is a business.
The challenge for AFL is to keep existing fans and continue to attract new fans at the same rate it has in the past. Furthermore it has to ensure that players continue to play the game at the same rate as in the past.
Failure to do either and market share starts to erode and it's the start of a slippery downward spiral.
NRL,Rugby,Cricket,Basketball ,Baseball ,Cycling,Hockey,Athletics,Swimming, Soccer all face the same issues. But we all know they each have a massive advantage over AFL. They are international.
What happens when revenue peaks and starts to drop? That's crunch time.
I don't know when it will happen .But I am certain it will. Because AFL is steadily losing it's grip on the media. That has been the lynch pin to protecting it's market.
AFL is a very well run organisation and probably is the best of all of the sporting codes in this country and has been for a long time. Their ability for so long to effectively exterminate any sporting opposition in Victoria for so long has been impressive.
Compared to other Football codes it has had a steady upward growth with only a few blips along the way.
But you can't keep growing in a small market like Australia. Sooner or later you reach saturation and spend all your time clinging to the top for dear life.
The AFL is getting close to saturation here and now it gets hard for them. They need to expand overseas to grow further and at home they are sitting ducks waiting for other sports to erode their market share.
There are so many parallels in Australian business and sport is a business.
The challenge for AFL is to keep existing fans and continue to attract new fans at the same rate it has in the past. Furthermore it has to ensure that players continue to play the game at the same rate as in the past.
Failure to do either and market share starts to erode and it's the start of a slippery downward spiral.
NRL,Rugby,Cricket,Basketball ,Baseball ,Cycling,Hockey,Athletics,Swimming, Soccer all face the same issues. But we all know they each have a massive advantage over AFL. They are international.
What happens when revenue peaks and starts to drop? That's crunch time.
I don't know when it will happen .But I am certain it will. Because AFL is steadily losing it's grip on the media. That has been the lynch pin to protecting it's market.
Up the Guts
Steve Williams (59)
The huge amount of home derbies is getting a bit tiresome. I’d rather see a totally at home competition with smaller regional based teams than same old Australian Super sides grinding out another lacklustre display every second week.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Half, I’m sure you felt better writing that. I certainly felt better reading it.
It’s a good point: the state boundaries reflect a different time and are actually completely irrelevant to how you’d structure teams according tomdemographics.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
fair enough Kiap, well i can only speak about my experience with my rugby mates.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Thanks, while I admire their management it is a shit game, and the hype of their devotees makes me mad.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Nah, it’s a much better sport than league or Australian soccer...........
And to be fair I’ve probably had more enjoyment from the AFL in recent years than Australian rugby.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
A point I've raised many times before on this thread and on the ARU thread. Structuring the game according to 19th century colonial boundaries is nonsensical. The state RUs should have been abolished long ago. Clubs should affiliate directly to RA using the RFU model. The RFU then oversights regional academies and regionally based competitions.
For example, we already have a Sydney Rugby Union and Country regions across NSW. It defies logic to have the NSWRU between these regions and RA. I asssume similar structure in Brisbane and regional Qld.
Get rid of one layer of bureaucracy in one fell swoop.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I reckon it’s worse.
It seems so much slower in the flesh because it’s often a long way away.
Strewthcobber
Simon Poidevin (60)
There's no brisbane Ru equivalent. The prem clubs are direct affiliates of the QRU. There are regional affiliates though.
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charlesalan
Sydney Middleton (9)
Thanks Half, you have put a lot of thought into your three part analysis.
With reference to Part 1 - I can confirm the dirty tactics used by AFL head honchoes to book sports fields that they think Rugby might want - even if they don't need them, they will make some use of them, and leave lesser grounds available for Rugby. The ground in question was etihad - which AFL now own, so goodbye Rugby.
Part 2 - is a very real fear for parents - but this exists in all sports where injuries can occur and AFL have had their fair share recently of concussions and serious neck and back injuries - I don't blame the parents for this / but good coaching rather than fingers crossed coaching would allay a lot of those fears - if players know technical manoeuvers to protect themselves during contact that has to allay fear whereas - for AFL, the hit can come from any direction even if the players doesnt have the ball.
Part 3 - AFL has tapped into the female market place in a way that Rugby can only dream of and in so doing they have doubled their potential fan base. I agree with you that they continue to exterminate other sports but at the same time they bring new supporters to their games because the spectacle of the game (70,000 people, three or four times a week in Melbourne) is so much fun in the pre, the during and the post match conversations.
With reference to Part 1 - I can confirm the dirty tactics used by AFL head honchoes to book sports fields that they think Rugby might want - even if they don't need them, they will make some use of them, and leave lesser grounds available for Rugby. The ground in question was etihad - which AFL now own, so goodbye Rugby.
Part 2 - is a very real fear for parents - but this exists in all sports where injuries can occur and AFL have had their fair share recently of concussions and serious neck and back injuries - I don't blame the parents for this / but good coaching rather than fingers crossed coaching would allay a lot of those fears - if players know technical manoeuvers to protect themselves during contact that has to allay fear whereas - for AFL, the hit can come from any direction even if the players doesnt have the ball.
Part 3 - AFL has tapped into the female market place in a way that Rugby can only dream of and in so doing they have doubled their potential fan base. I agree with you that they continue to exterminate other sports but at the same time they bring new supporters to their games because the spectacle of the game (70,000 people, three or four times a week in Melbourne) is so much fun in the pre, the during and the post match conversations.
chibimatty
Jimmy Flynn (14)
Indeed, quite a kerfuffle was caused by the local AFL establishment, the WAFC, when the 'rights of control' for the new Perth stadium were not given to them. They even went so far as to threaten to ban AFL from the ground and keep using Subiaco Oval. The bluff was called of course, but you have to wonder how they would have held other sports to ransom had they got the rights. One should only have seen the massive sook they threw when they realised that the first major event at the ground was to be the NRL double-header. I think they hurriedly arranged a women's AFL match with gold coin entry to pip them. It didn't matter though, the old powerhouse of WA sport, cricket, took the honours with a 50k attendance Scorchers game.
Related to this, it is also worth noting that they have continually campaigned hard for the WACA Ground to be closed down and sold off, bearing in mind that the WACA is the only 20k ground in WA actually owned and run by its parent organisation, therefore providing a valuable asset to cricket. Now while the usefulness of the WACA Ground is debatable, as much I love the ground; all the while a bunch of useless, underutilised footy grounds abound in the Perth suburbs, still taking taxpayer funding for unnecessary upgrades. Funnily enough, the term "centre of excellence" has been used to justify their continued existence and taxpayer-funded development. Apparently they aren't shitty old under-used grounds, they are "centres of excellence" for the football-loving local community.
This was one of the key ingredients in the AFL destroying the once-magnificent local footy competition over here, the WAFL. Buying off the local media, the AFL and their newly-formed WAFC were able to market the Eagles as an unchallenged "state" team and marketed the side as tight-short wearing sex-symbols. For the first time we saw footy players everywhere in female-aimed media, photo-shoots, pin-up calenders, the lot. (Kind of makes me wonder what the outrage would be like if netball decided to bring in more male fans by adopting the same tactics) Anyway, this needed to be done, as WAFL teams were the heart and soul of urban Perth, and the male fans still supported their traditional clubs. But hey, the media was always there to tell them that they were "old-fashioned" and "behind the times"
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
^^^^^^So do the tradional suburban Aussie rules clubs still exist?
chibimatty
Jimmy Flynn (14)
They exist as feeders for the AFL; but in actuality the real feeders are junior clubs, high schools and the national draft. I would say that the WAFL clubs now exist as your typical lower-level comp, that is, full of players who aren't up to AFL standard or players brought in from or dropped down from the extended AFL squads.
As far as entities unto themselves in a marketing sense, they don't exist; you won't find any WAFL merchandise anywhere. Which is a great shame for an 80s kid like me; back then, the WAFL in Perth was like the BRL in Brisbane, the NSWRL in Sydney, the SANFL in Adelaide and the VFL in Melbourne.
But hey, the shrinking of eight senior professional WAFL clubs down to two AFL clubs has left the door open for other professional sports. We would never have seen 40k for the Force Vs Brumbies, those mammoth Perth Glory soccer grand finals or those Perth Wildcats premierships if WAFL footy was still king here. The only thing that could rival it back then, was Rod Marsh keeping to a fired up Dennis Lillee, charging in from the Gloucester Park End on a sunny afternoon.
As far as entities unto themselves in a marketing sense, they don't exist; you won't find any WAFL merchandise anywhere. Which is a great shame for an 80s kid like me; back then, the WAFL in Perth was like the BRL in Brisbane, the NSWRL in Sydney, the SANFL in Adelaide and the VFL in Melbourne.
But hey, the shrinking of eight senior professional WAFL clubs down to two AFL clubs has left the door open for other professional sports. We would never have seen 40k for the Force Vs Brumbies, those mammoth Perth Glory soccer grand finals or those Perth Wildcats premierships if WAFL footy was still king here. The only thing that could rival it back then, was Rod Marsh keeping to a fired up Dennis Lillee, charging in from the Gloucester Park End on a sunny afternoon.
Maybe I'm an outlier on this, but I think the quality of Aussie derby games has been way higher this year.
I can't remember a bad one - Brumbies/Rebels this weekend was fast, close and relatively skilful.
A few years ago the derbies were horrific, riddled with errors and pedantic officiating. I think we're a long way from where we used to be.
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