Where to for Super Rugby?

[half]

I'll probably spam this on a few threads, but everyone needs to read Jamie's article on the front page.

It's a long article but smashes it out of the park on the issues we're facing.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/australian-rugby-how-to-stop-it-failing-upwards/

Barbarian

Thanks for putting up that link I read it three times lots of good stuff in there and I endorse what BB said everyone should read.

I am very much in favour of private ownership under the control of a new body with new teams, as I have mentioned a lot over the last few months. Jamie Miller’s article touches on this at the end but not in any great detail.

If you know Jamie tell him to write a similar size article on how private ownership could work in rugby in Australia.

For those that don’t have the time here are the main points I took from the article [BTW they are copy / paste so not my words]

Players are leaving in their prime.

Finances are heavily skewed towards retaining top players, not development in any form.

Reform is not enough. We need a revolution

Trust between administrators and supporters is non-existent. Players are leaving en masse. Media coverage sucks, stuck in a relentlessly negative narrative

Failure keeps getting rewarded.

World Rugby just doesn’t care about the health of rugby here. It is willing to throw Australia (and South Africa) under the bus.

Super Rugby is a loss maker, perhaps a substantial one, with or without the Western Force. That’s key point one.

Rugby Australia has managed to get itself into a position where it essentially pays for Super Rugby to exist, but doesn’t yield the rewards in terms of long-term Wallaby development.

At the same time, Rugby Australia’s top-heavy strategy isn’t actually stemming the bleeding

 

[wamberal]

And the lead story on tonight's news, including the ABC? Cameron Smith retiring. World-shattering stuff.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Barbarian



Thanks for putting up that link I read it three times lots of good stuff in there and I endorse what BB said everyone should read.



I am very much in favour of private ownership under the control of a new body with new teams, as I have mentioned a lot over the last few months. Jamie Miller’s article touches on this at the end but not in any great detail.



If you know Jamie tell him to write a similar size article on how private ownership could work in rugby in Australia.



For those that don’t have the time here are the main points I took from the article [BTW they are copy / paste so not my words]



Players are leaving in their prime.



Finances are heavily skewed towards retaining top players, not development in any form.



Reform is not enough. We need a revolution



Trust between administrators and supporters is non-existent. Players are leaving en masse. Media coverage sucks, stuck in a relentlessly negative narrative



Failure keeps getting rewarded.



World Rugby just doesn’t care about the health of rugby here. It is willing to throw Australia (and South Africa) under the bus.



Super Rugby is a loss maker, perhaps a substantial one, with or without the Western Force. That’s key point one.



Rugby Australia has managed to get itself into a position where it essentially pays for Super Rugby to exist, but doesn’t yield the rewards in terms of long-term Wallaby development.



At the same time, Rugby Australia’s top-heavy strategy isn’t actually stemming the bleeding

Thanks Barbarian for reminder about Jamie's article as yes I needed to re-read that as was long but also well worth the effort second time around as insightful of problems bestowed on us.

Loved this bit "

Currently, Australian teams offer structure in attack and unpredictability in defence, rather than unpredictability in attack and structure in defence."​

So true - and our coaching depth is just so obviously fallen apart to have Super Rugby coaches with no more than 2 years Head Coach experience is alarming....and sums it up for me...the removal of acadamies yet another fallacy - we really have destroyed the foundations and I don't think we have a body with any clue to rebuild - ready RA....

Get we poach a senior NZRU official as clearly they are the leaders on what to do given how dominant in recent years they have become through their solid foundations....

 

[wamberal]

We have poached a few senior figures from New Zealand rugby.

Robbie Deans, for example. How dominant did he make us?

Rugby is the game in New Zealand, and always has been. They now have strength in depth that is the envy of the whole world, not just us.

If it is as easy as importing one senior official, count me in, I will make a donation. But I want a money back guarantee.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Barbarian



Thanks for putting up that link I read it three times lots of good stuff in there and I endorse what BB said everyone should read.



I am very much in favour of private ownership under the control of a new body with new teams, as I have mentioned a lot over the last few months. Jamie Miller’s article touches on this at the end but not in any great detail.



If you know Jamie tell him to write a similar size article on how private ownership could work in rugby in Australia.



For those that don’t have the time here are the main points I took from the article [BTW they are copy / paste so not my words]



Players are leaving in their prime.



Finances are heavily skewed towards retaining top players, not development in any form.



Reform is not enough. We need a revolution



Trust between administrators and supporters is non-existent. Players are leaving en masse. Media coverage sucks, stuck in a relentlessly negative narrative



Failure keeps getting rewarded.



World Rugby just doesn’t care about the health of rugby here. It is willing to throw Australia (and South Africa) under the bus.



Super Rugby is a loss maker, perhaps a substantial one, with or without the Western Force. That’s key point one.



Rugby Australia has managed to get itself into a position where it essentially pays for Super Rugby to exist, but doesn’t yield the rewards in terms of long-term Wallaby development.



At the same time, Rugby Australia’s top-heavy strategy isn’t actually stemming the bleeding

Half everybody wants a revolution...Twiggy from the outside in some ways doing this but needs help....Cameron Clyne needs to go and most of the board. I am actually not anti Raelene at this stage as contrary to most on public platform I thought on kick and chase she showed insights into problems as much as she could and expected. But the board is a dead weight and moreso shown with recent board appointments which is not a revolution but more of the status quo with stale thinking added...

I am just waiting for details of Twiggy Ball next season and so ready to dump my fox sports package - not gone to tahs game for a couple of sesaons after regularly organising mates to go to at least 2-3 games every season...and now tape every Super Rugby oz game and would say I watch only 20% with rest fast forwarded or deleted as so hard to watch..

 

[Rugbynutter39]

We have poached a few senior figures from New Zealand rugby.



Robbie Deans, for example. How dominant did he make us?



Rugby is the game in New Zealand, and always has been. They now have strength in depth that is the envy of the whole world, not just us.



If it is as easy as importing one senior official, count me in, I will make a donation. But I want a money back guarantee.

Wamberal - not coaches but professional administrators was my call on this ....but also I digress as we need good adminstrators from other codes....look at the Minderoo team twiggy put together as case in point and their experience with professional soccer / Asia etc.

But I agree at this point I would also make a donation for a senior NZRU official to come aboard and at this point given so dire I would not even look for a money back guarantee. But my money is actually on team Twiggy at the moment and good chance I will switch to his competition next year as my choice of watching professional rugby at this point, closely followed by Shute Shield and NRC.

 

[half]

Half everybody wants a revolution.Twiggy from the outside in some ways doing this but needs help..Cameron Clyne needs to go and most of the board. I am actually not anti Raelene at this stage as contrary to most on public platform I thought on kick and chase she showed insights into problems as much as she could and expected. But the board is a dead weight and moreso shown with recent board appointments which is not a revolution but more of the status quo with stale thinking added.

I am just waiting for details of Twiggy Ball next season and so ready to dump my fox sports package - not gone to tahs game for a couple of sesaons after regularly organising mates to go to at least 2-3 games every season.and now tape every Super Rugby oz game and would say I watch only 20% with rest fast forwarded or deleted as so hard to watch..

Agree with all that

 

[chibimatty]

Soccer had a similar problem in the 80s and 90s, kept thinking they needed appointees from foreign soccer associations to fix the game here. They were wrong, the answer was in their own backyard; they were living in one of the most successful and efficient sporting nations in the world, the place they needed to look was the administration of other Australian sports. These folks knew how to operate in this country, while soccer did not. They learnt.

It's now time for rugby to do the same. There are people in Perth who had no idea we even had rugby union here, until Nick Marvin came along and took over Twiggy's new Western Force. The mainstream fans turned it into the hottest ticket in town, regardless of the pro-AFL media. Nick came over after turning the Perth Wildcats around, an organisation that was mired in a sport that was floundering. Now look what we have, at least if the first two fixtures are anything to go by; early days yet I know, but what a start!

If AFL, soccer and basketball are being aggressive, maybe it's time to head-hunt? Maybe it's time to muster up funds from other rugby-loving billionaires and take the fight to our opposition? And what's better, we have both the traditional club spirit, old university and high school tradition, parochial provincialism and a historically great iconic national team on our side; we have a true Australian historical base we can use to build on.

We have an Australian cultural sleeping giant waiting to be re-awoken; and there's no reason why we need to carry New Zealand with us at all, just ask netball.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Half everybody wants a revolution.Twiggy from the outside in some ways doing this but needs help..Cameron Clyne needs to go and most of the board. I am actually not anti Raelene at this stage as contrary to most on public platform I thought on kick and chase she showed insights into problems as much as she could and expected. But the board is a dead weight and moreso shown with recent board appointments which is not a revolution but more of the status quo with stale thinking added.

I am just waiting for details of Twiggy Ball next season and so ready to dump my fox sports package - not gone to tahs game for a couple of sesaons after regularly organising mates to go to at least 2-3 games every season.and now tape every Super Rugby oz game and would say I watch only 20% with rest fast forwarded or deleted as so hard to watch..

Sorry to say twiggy ball is not the answer.
It reminds me of the first games of World Series cricket.
Pointless and poor standard.

 

[Micheal]

Sorry to say twiggy ball is not the answer.
It reminds me of the first games of World Series cricket.
Pointless and poor standard.

Well shit, you heard him folks, IS has spoken - pack it all up and get the gazebo back before they charge us another day for it.

Personally, I think it has as much point as any other arbitrarily defined competition, and given that the NZRU has publicly stated that it will go bankrupt by 2023 if either a) the next broadcast deal doesn’t tick significantly upward, or b) South Africa leaves Super Rufby, it doesn’t seem that Super Rugby has much of a future, outside of nonsensical expansion plans (eg to the US).

Unfortunately for (a) above, viewership is plummeting at Super Rugby level across the board, with the most prominent disinterest being from Australian crowds. Unless a once in a generation team emerges at one of the franchises (tip: it won’t) then this continued trend will mean less broadcasting dollars for SANZAAR next time around, particularly given Fox Sports’ stretched budget from their cricket bids etc.

Likewise, (b) is looking more and more viable for the SARU, who have to protect their own nest, due to the massive broadcast dollars that the Pro 14 generates.

As such, the NZRU and RA are increasingly fragile positions due to cash constraints and Twiggy Forrest just happens to be sitting smugly in WA, with a 6+ billion dollar cheque book burning a hole in his pockets.

Regardless of all the above, club rugby succeeds with a poor standard, and I am incredibly excited about a future for Australian rugby within Twiggy Ball, as are many others on this forum. I would love to see agency returned to Australian Rugby, more (semi)professional opportunities within the country and an Asian Pacific competition emerge - that alone renders your point moot.

 

[The torpedo]

Sorry to say twiggy ball is not the answer.
It reminds me of the first games of World Series cricket.
Pointless and poor standard.

Isn't that what was said about World Series Cricket when it was first started?

 

[half]

Michael Lynch is a Soccer journalist for The Age in Melbourne.

He is quite a decent journalist, and is well respected with Australia’s soccer community.

He wrote an article a couple of days ago. In it he called for the A-League to be frown to 16 teams and for a second division of 16 teams to be created and in time for promotion and regulation between the two divisions to take place.

This is the link if you want to read the article https://www.theage.com.au/sport/soc...-so-expand-a-league-fast-20180512-p4zevp.html

I mention this because of we share with soccer some common issues today in terms of governance issues, falling ratings etc.

But the solutions they talk about and most believe will in a reasonably short time be introduced are expand expand expand expand expand.

These people have a faith in their game we seem to lack. We need to change the conversation to how best to develop rugby and repeating myself again we need the professional game run by its own independent body with independent teams playing in it.

Its all doable we just need faith, like Twiggy has.

This is part of the article.

FFA has said it will enlarge the A-League by two teams for the 2019-20 season. In my view that is merely a start, and a cautious one at that.
For the game to truly grow, what soccer needs is two divisions, preferably both of 16 teams but a minimum of 14, with promotion and relegation the eventual aim.
Ambitious? Yes.
Worth trying for? Absolutely.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Isn't that what was said about World Series Cricket when it was first started?

The difference is WSC had the best in the world playing.
I don’t recall anyone saying the standard of WSC was poor.
Mind you, oz super rugby is shite despite sacking a team and redistributing the talent, and apparently Raelene thinks that model should be retained.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Michael Lynch is a Soccer journalist for The Age in Melbourne.

He is quite a decent journalist, and is well respected with Australia’s soccer community.

He wrote an article a couple of days ago. In it he called for the A-League to be frown to 16 teams and for a second division of 16 teams to be created and in time for promotion and regulation between the two divisions to take place.

This is the link if you want to read the article https://www.theage.com.au/sport/soc...-so-expand-a-league-fast-20180512-p4zevp.html

I mention this because of we share with soccer some common issues today in terms of governance issues, falling ratings etc.

But the solutions they talk about and most believe will in a reasonably short time be introduced are expand expand expand expand expand.

These people have a faith in their game we seem to lack. We need to change the conversation to how best to develop rugby and repeating myself again we need the professional game run by its own independent body with independent teams playing in it.

Its all doable we just need faith, like Twiggy has.

This is part of the article.

Except we tried expansion with no base, sacked the expandeD team in the place where rugby had a toehold and kept the team where it will never Enter the mainstream concsciouness. So we have kind of burned a few too many bridges on that route.

 

[kiap]

The difference is WSC had the best in the world playing.
I don’t recall anyone saying the standard of WSC was poor.

So why did you claim this?

Sorry to say twiggy ball is not the answer.
It reminds me of the first games of World Series cricket.
Pointless and poor standard.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Sorry to say twiggy ball is not the answer.
It reminds me of the first games of World Series cricket.
Pointless and poor standard.

I have more faith in twiggy’s team leading reform and salvation for rugby in this country than rugby Australia


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I have more faith in twiggy’s team leading reform and salvation for rugby in this country than rugby Australia


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me tooo :-(

 

[hoggy]

I have more faith in twiggy’s team leading reform and salvation for rugby in this country than rugby Australia


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find it kinda sad actually because I completely agree, unless Twiggy ball leads to genuine change. Then I see absolutely nothing happening.

The RA are pretty much backed into a corner, they have no money and no bargaining power, so they are going to have to take whatever is offered re Super rugby come 2020, and that will not help the game here, it will probably be the death knell of the game here.

I find it incredible that rugby here is so completely in denial of how a sporting code grows that it consistently chooses options that will inevitably lead to its own demise

 

[Rebels3]

Been thinking about the restructure required in Aus Rugby (yes a little sad as im at work).

One of the biggest issues to the franchises is lack of success. Problem with having a 15 team competition where you only had/have 33/26% of participants is that you can also have those clubs been in the bottom 50% of the competition. Luxury the NRL and AFL have is that for every terrible team and negative news story (Parramatta, Carlton, Brisbane Lions, Bulldogs, etc) there is some on the opposite end of the table, so a positive story (Richmond, West Tigers, St George, West Coast, etc.). If Super Rugby is to go forward, i legitimately believe there needs to be a championship or separate competition which involves just the participating Australian teams. Perhaps a 5 team (Force, Reds, Tahs, Rebels, Brums, perhaps a PI team), 8-10 round competition played pre Super Rugby.

Our season is the wrong way around. So play the competition from March-April culminating in a final on Australian soil. Play the first Bledisloe on ANZAC Day or the corresponding weekend, finishing with a restructure of the Rugby Championship to a 5 Nations (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Argentina and Japan(only 4 fixtures = everyone once aka 6 nations)). Which will coincide with the dropping of the Sunwolves from Super Rugby allowing the Japanese Domestic league to be what ever it needs to be. June will still be internationals against NH teams. During this month span, the non int players go back to club rugby supporting grassroots. Only downside to this would be no NRC , however the domestic competition and non selection of wallabies players during the Bledisloe clash would allow for opportunities to young players.

Then play Super Rugby uninterrupted from July to October and finish the season with the NH internationals.

Aus Schedule

Jan - Rest
Feb - Rest
Mar - Domestic Championship
Apr - Domestic Championship + ANZAC Bledisloe
May - Rugby Championship (New 5 Nations) (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jun - SH internationals (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jul - Super Rugby/Indo Pacific (Force)
Aug - Super Rugby/Indo Pacific (Force)
Sep - Super Rugby/Indo Pacific (Force)
Oct - Super Rugby
Nov - NH internationals
Dec - Rest

NZ schedule would look like

Jan - Rest
Feb - Rest
Mar - NPC
Apr - NPC + ANZAC Bledisloe
May - Rugby Championship (New 5 Nations) (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jun - SH internationals (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jul - Super Rugby
Aug - Super Rugby
Sep - Super Rugby
Oct - Super Rugby
Nov - NH internationals
Dec - Rest

SAF (If they continue in Super Rugby)

Jan - Rest
Feb - Rest
Mar - Currie Cup
Apr - Currie Cup
May - Rugby Championship (New 5 Nations) (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jun - SH internationals (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jul - Super Rugby
Aug - Super Rugby
Sep - Super Rugby
Oct - Super Rugby
Nov - NH internationals
Dec - Rest

Argentine Schedule

Jan - Rest
Feb - Rest
Mar - New South American Professional Championship
Apr - New South American professional championship
May - Rugby Championship (New 5 Nations) (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jun - SH internationals (Non Internationals back at club land)
Jul - Super Rugby
Aug - Super Rugby
Sep - Super Rugby
Oct - Super Rugby
Nov - NH internationals
Dec - Rest

*more games for our super clubs to be exposed to (marketing opportunities)
*more content for our members to engage and build affiliation with Super club (11 homes games)
*more rest for players
*Greater emphasis on the domestic comps with the best players actually playing, each country also guaranteed a "champion" (positive news story)
*Asian dollars in the Rugby Championship and not Super Rugby
*More emphasis on Club Rugby
*Appeases TV companies (Perhaps FTA for Aus championship? TV networks a lot more interested in Reds/Tahs/Force brand than the NRC versions, non rugby fans actually have heard of them)
*No stoppages in any competition
*Multiple competitions to keep fans engaged (eg. Football)

I'm sure there is plenty of holes in this, but worth a thought anyway

 

[Braveheart81]

The June internationals move to July in 2020.