Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
I see the Force chairman has come out and said we should look to Asia on top of what we are already doing
Where to for Super Rugby?
- Thread starter Quick Hands
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Joe King
Dave Cowper (27)
Got any links?
Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/the...d-to-create-asia-australia-comp-c-2929363.amp
Also Top League chairman has tonight come out saying talks ongoing with Aus, NZ and Japan about a comp
Joe King
Dave Cowper (27)
Have you got a link for that one too?
hoggy
Nev Cottrell (35)
“I think there would be an appetite for it, particularly with the way the season is structured,” Deans said.
“You’d have a domestic competition concluded and a domestic champion, or ranking if you like. And then you go across border, so your support base would follow that with interest."
Now we are starting to talk sense, lets just put a full TT to rest. We tried that for 20 years and it was a fucking disaster.
Domestic competitions followed by champion league style comps, ffs it not rocket science.
“You’d have a domestic competition concluded and a domestic champion, or ranking if you like. And then you go across border, so your support base would follow that with interest."
Now we are starting to talk sense, lets just put a full TT to rest. We tried that for 20 years and it was a fucking disaster.
Domestic competitions followed by champion league style comps, ffs it not rocket science.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
I've said this before but NZ must look at making any player in a Super Rugby Comp eligible for the ABs.
Australia needs the player/coach depth and quality of NZ and NZ needs a vibrant, engaged Australian market and fan base. So I'll have a crack at answering your questions:
(a) Because they want to play professional rugby. Rather than Ponsonby or Northland rugby (up the Taniwha!!
) or even club rugby in Europe being the pinnacle of their playing career, these 'second-rate Kiwi's' would love to test themselves against AB and Wallaby players. Fuck - they might just out-play them once in a while.(b) NZ don't own the players - at least not until they pay them. And paying them is getting harder and harder to do.
(c ) You probably won't get AB contenders - at least not right away. But you could get some great players in the levels not far below that. Or even ex-Test players. This is not just about AB or Wallaby contenders. It's also about depth. In the last 10yrs or so, Australia has produced some GREAT players - Pocock, Genia, Mitchell, Hooper, JOC (James O'Connor), Beale, QC (Quade Cooper). But where was the depth behind them? Some of the absolute shit that RA had to put up with, with those last 3 in particular, knowing that the gap between them and the next guy was too big to really drop or discipline them. Part of the strength of NZ rugby is that even Aaron Smith knows that he has to prove himself on and off the field.
(d) 1. Players don't beat other NZ teams by themselves. But they are better than a lot of the players you have to pick from now. There are guys in ITM and Heartland rugby squads who are better than some of the guys running around for the Waratahs or Rebels. And don't just look at players. Start trying to identify coaches. Look at all the former ABs who hold coaching positions - Scott Robertson, Leon McDonald, Tony Brown, Tana Umaga, Aaron Mauger, Brad Thorn all come to mind off the top of my head. Who is looking for the opportunity to prove themselves in the coaching box next? Australia needs good coaches - not just at Test and Super Rugby level and not just in the HC position. 2. How many of these "best young players who would otherwise go to League" are being retained right now? And ultimately, if these young guns are going to be the best, they will have to prove themselves. If they can't beat out a 'second-rate Kiwi' just to get a spot on their own team, maybe they aren't worth the money and they SHOULD go to league.
In addition to NZers coming to play in Super Rugby AU, Australia should also do the same. Talk to any Aussie player who has spent time playing in the NZ system and how much they learnt and how they improved. Fuck off selecting guys who played in Europe - how many of them came back better? Christian Lealiifano and Henry Speight are 2 guys who come to mind - guys who weren't really on the Aussie radar until they played in NZ.
Western Force supporters don't give a flying shit if a quarter of the team is Kiwi - they just want the Force to win.
Australian rugby needs access to better players and coaches (which will assist in improving and developing local talent) and NZ needs access to the Australian market - but one that isn't defeated and pessimistic.
And much of the onus is on NZ. We have been the best at this sport for over 10yrs now and we need to help Australia, the Pacific Nations and Japan to ensure the game stays healthy in our region. Even if it means being a little less successful on the field.
Just a little though. LOL
And fuck the USA. They have enough money and a big enough market to help themselves.
Yes - I am slightly worried, admittedly selfishly, about if the US ever took rugby really seriously how hard they could become to beating.
Joe King
Dave Cowper (27)
Assuming there are only 18 weeks in which to fit Super Rugby…
The champions league could be divided into three divisions: Cup, Shield, and Plate (for want of better names).
In the Cup division you would have the top 2 teams from Super Rugby AU, the top 2 from Super Rugby Aotearoa, and the top 2 from the Top League. In the Shield division you would have the next 2 best teams (3rd and 4th) from each domestic comp, and in the Plate division you would have teams placed 5th and 6th from each domestic comp.*
Within each division, you would play everyone NOT from your own domestic comp once for 4 games + a final = 5 weeks total. And you end up with a Cup, Shield, and Plate winner.
Here is an example of what the format for the Cup division would look like based on this year's results in Super Rugby AU and Super Rugby Aotearoa:
Round 1 (Home v Away)
Japan 1 v Reds
Brumbies v Chiefs
Japan 2 v Crusaders
Round 2 (H v A)
Brumbies v Japan 1
Chiefs v Japan 2
Reds v Crusaders
Round 3 (H v A)
Reds v Japan 2
Crusaders v Brumbies
Japan 1 v Chiefs
Round 4 (H v A)
Chiefs v Reds
Crusaders v Japan 1
Japan 2 v Brumbies
Round 5 (H v A)
Final (1st v 2nd).
- The rankings for the champions league would be based on the previous year's domestic comps. If a team wants to move up into a higher division of the champions league, they need to improve their position in their respective domestic competition. Embrace the challenge!
——————————-
Now if Super Rugby AU and Super Rugby Aotearoa are played as a home and away double round robin with six teams each, including finals, you would need 12 weeks.
I’m not entirely sure how Japan plans to structure their domestic comp. It would be great if they could structure their division 1 to include only 6 teams.
However, for Australia and NZ: 12 weeks for their domestic comp + 5 weeks for the champions league + 1 bye = 18 weeks. A perfect fit.
This is how the structure could look:
Week 1: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 2: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 3: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 4: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 5: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 6: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 7: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 8: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 9: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (week off for all Test players in camp)
Week 10: Anzac Day Bledisloe Cup (week off for all non-Test players)
Week 11: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 12: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (semi-final)
Week 13: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (final)
Week 14: champions league round 1
Week 15: champions league round 2
Week 16: champions league round 3
Week 17: champions league round 4
Week 18: champions league final for each division: Cup, Shield, Plate
With this model, every team from Super Rugby AU and Super Rugby Aotearoa gets a minimum of 7 home games each year.
Next step: invite Japan to be part of the Rugby Championship.
Joe King
Dave Cowper (27)
Or if you wanted to follow the European model and structure the champions league throughout the domestic season on designated weekends, it could look like the following:
Week 1: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 2: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 3: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 4: champions league round 1
Week 5: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 6: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 7: champions league round 2
Week 8: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 9: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (week off for all Test players in camp)
Week 10: Anzac Day Bledisloe Cup (bye for all non-Test players)
Week 11: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 12: champions league round 3
Week 13: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 14: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 15: champions league round 4
Week 16: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (semi final)
Week 17: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (final)
Week 18: champions league final for each division: Cup, Shield, Plate
The benefit of this model is for those who felt a six team domestic comp would get a little stale, this structure helps takes care of that.
And for any Kiwis who were worried about the intensity of Super Rugby Aotearoa and potential player injuries, this structure gives the NZ teams plenty of 'breaks' throughout with games against Australian and Japanese teams.
Week 1: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 2: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 3: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 4: champions league round 1
Week 5: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 6: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 7: champions league round 2
Week 8: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 9: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (week off for all Test players in camp)
Week 10: Anzac Day Bledisloe Cup (bye for all non-Test players)
Week 11: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 12: champions league round 3
Week 13: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 14: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League
Week 15: champions league round 4
Week 16: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (semi final)
Week 17: Super Rugby AU / Aotearoa / Top League (final)
Week 18: champions league final for each division: Cup, Shield, Plate
The benefit of this model is for those who felt a six team domestic comp would get a little stale, this structure helps takes care of that.
And for any Kiwis who were worried about the intensity of Super Rugby Aotearoa and potential player injuries, this structure gives the NZ teams plenty of 'breaks' throughout with games against Australian and Japanese teams.
Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
Easy enough to understand but there will be some people that complain it’s too complicated, despite just about every sporting structure in the world is filled with multiple competitions or conference’s and they seem to understand it just fine. Even rugby league in England manages to have 2 trophies across the year.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
I was just reading about Japan thing on Stuff, be interesting to see where it or if it goes. Must admit doesn't send me into great spasms of delight. I know the money will be good, and there will be even more demand for kiwi and Aus rugby players in Japan, but if I looked at it more it may get interest stirred.I wondering if we will then have a call for Aus players to be able to play for Japanese clubs and still play for Wallabies?
Actually what I found incredibly interesting was Ben Darwin on Aotearoa podcast last night talking on what they reckon makes successful teams etc in all sport. He did end with saying he had seen online some posters saying Aus teams need to pull out of Super (or whatever it will be called in future) and he said Aus rugby would just disappear more or less. But that was only one comment was incredibly interesting to listen to what they had worked out from how teams were successful etc etc, and not just rugby.
Strangely enough my wife didn't find it anywhere nears as interesting as me, in fact made cooments about a bit boring (when she woke up) Which just showed how good it must of been
Actually what I found incredibly interesting was Ben Darwin on Aotearoa podcast last night talking on what they reckon makes successful teams etc in all sport. He did end with saying he had seen online some posters saying Aus teams need to pull out of Super (or whatever it will be called in future) and he said Aus rugby would just disappear more or less. But that was only one comment was incredibly interesting to listen to what they had worked out from how teams were successful etc etc, and not just rugby.
Strangely enough my wife didn't find it anywhere nears as interesting as me, in fact made cooments about a bit boring (when she woke up)
Which just showed how good it must of been
Teh Other Dave
Alan Cameron (40)
20 years of complete disaster? Really? You're only detracting from your argument.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
Thanks Joe I did forget they play champions league through the domestic season and I agree playing the champions league through the domestic seasons makes a lot of sense ie avoid domestics getting stale and providing different products through the domestic season to add to spice and fan appeal. Definitely favour this approach if we do a champions league (and per reports sounds like when not if which given interest in concept and commercially needing to tie in Japan makes a lot of sense).
I actually feel really positive about direction for rugby in region as for oz governance reform with proposal to replace RA with AFL style independent commission, got a domestic pro product up and working, got expected PE investment to provide funds for oz reform and growth.got TT up and running with 5 oz teams (yeh concerns about our competitiveness but at least RA recognise need to address this), got oz well positioned to win 2027 RWC bid which could provide further financial windfall, got major billionaire interested in our game and funding the force (twiggy), got néw tv deal with importantly rugby on FTA and showing good early ratings....probably other things as well but they list will do for the moment.
So glass half full for me at the moment.
Rugbynutter39
Michael Lynagh (62)
I think of English Premier league and teams like Arsenal which is one of the most popular supported UK teams and remember the teams when I lived in London had anything from 0 to 2 English players in their squad at the time. Yep fans don’t give a shite whether team is half full of foreign imports but they do care about having quality players and quality teams that can win games.I've said this before but NZ must look at making any player in a Super Rugby Comp eligible for the ABs.
Australia needs the player/coach depth and quality of NZ and NZ needs a vibrant, engaged Australian market and fan base. So I'll have a crack at answering your questions:
(a) Because they want to play professional rugby. Rather than Ponsonby or Northland rugby (up the Taniwha!!
(b) NZ don't own the players - at least not until they pay them. And paying them is getting harder and harder to do.
(c ) You probably won't get AB contenders - at least not right away. But you could get some great players in the levels not far below that. Or even ex-Test players. This is not just about AB or Wallaby contenders. It's also about depth. In the last 10yrs or so, Australia has produced some GREAT players - Pocock, Genia, Mitchell, Hooper, JOC (James O'Connor), Beale, QC (Quade Cooper). But where was the depth behind them? Some of the absolute shit that RA had to put up with, with those last 3 in particular, knowing that the gap between them and the next guy was too big to really drop or discipline them. Part of the strength of NZ rugby is that even Aaron Smith knows that he has to prove himself on and off the field.
(d) 1. Players don't beat other NZ teams by themselves. But they are better than a lot of the players you have to pick from now. There are guys in ITM and Heartland rugby squads who are better than some of the guys running around for the Waratahs or Rebels. And don't just look at players. Start trying to identify coaches. Look at all the former ABs who hold coaching positions - Scott Robertson, Leon McDonald, Tony Brown, Tana Umaga, Aaron Mauger, Brad Thorn all come to mind off the top of my head. Who is looking for the opportunity to prove themselves in the coaching box next? Australia needs good coaches - not just at Test and Super Rugby level and not just in the HC position. 2. How many of these "best young players who would otherwise go to League" are being retained right now? And ultimately, if these young guns are going to be the best, they will have to prove themselves. If they can't beat out a 'second-rate Kiwi' just to get a spot on their own team, maybe they aren't worth the money and they SHOULD go to league.
In addition to NZers coming to play in Super Rugby AU, Australia should also do the same. Talk to any Aussie player who has spent time playing in the NZ system and how much they learnt and how they improved. Fuck off selecting guys who played in Europe - how many of them came back better? Christian Lealiifano and Henry Speight are 2 guys who come to mind - guys who weren't really on the Aussie radar until they played in NZ.
Western Force supporters don't give a flying shit if a quarter of the team is Kiwi - they just want the Force to win.
Australian rugby needs access to better players and coaches (which will assist in improving and developing local talent) and NZ needs access to the Australian market - but one that isn't defeated and pessimistic.
And much of the onus is on NZ. We have been the best at this sport for over 10yrs now and we need to help Australia, the Pacific Nations and Japan to ensure the game stays healthy in our region. Even if it means being a little less successful on the field.
Just a little though. LOL
And fuck the USA. They have enough money and a big enough market to help themselves.
Yes - I am slightly worried, admittedly selfishly, about if the US ever took rugby really seriously how hard they could become to beating.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
I like the idea of champions league during season, have said before, and would help keep interest up as said. And how I would do TT too if this thing doesn't take off.
I not quite ready to do draw yet, as perhaps there still a bit of water under the bridge to go yet, but all is worth thinking on.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Asia? Forgeddaboutit.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Force chairman maybe thinking of Twiggy when he mentions Asia too.
Teh Other Dave
Alan Cameron (40)
Just what we need, another bloated competition.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Well, yeah. But Hong Kong Rugby Union is skint, they rely on the Sevens to provide all their revenues.
They are reverting to a "semi-professional" status as from the end of this financial year in June. We have been hit hard, basically all the Asian unions would have been hit harder.
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