Where to for Super Rugby?

[Joe King]

One thing I'm struggling to get my head around is that it looks as if there a literally no more than 18 weeks from the 2nd last weekend in Feb to the July tests, in which to fit whatever Super Rugby model.

I'm not even sure how they could keep the structure from this year if there are 6 teams each in Super Rugby AU/ Super Rugby Aotearoa. They couldn't even fit a break between the domestic and TT this year with only 5 teams each.

I'm really happy for someone to slap me on the face with obvious answer, but if they are going keep some form of comp between AU and NZ, then how could it be anything else than a single round robin TT or my odd-ball proposal a few pages back.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Is this the article you are referring to:

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/05/23/the-rest-of-the-rugby-world-has-left-australia-behind/

It's an excellent article, but I don't think he's saying that the reason the Oz Super Rugby teams are struggling is because their skills have significantly declined due to an insular domestic comp. And nor is he saying that the solution is a full season TT.

He's saying that the reason the Oz Super Rugby teams are struggling is because the refs in Super Rugby AU didn't follow World Rugby’s new breakdown directives, whereas NZ and the rest of the world did.

And so the solution, it seems to me, is to do exactly what NZ did in Super Rugby Aotearoa, and enforce the directives, right?

You genuinely think that's the sole reason for the poor showing?

 

[Dan54]

You mean the one below that said no to agreeing to home and away TT series. I have attached it below in case you did not finish reading this one. PS Dan pls let us have some joy of seeing oz teams win at least short term by letting us keep at LEAST a short form domestic comp b4 TT before we kill of any remaining u45 rugby fans.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/05/23/how-to-fix-australian-rugbys-trans-tasman-problem/

No I had read that one, and wasn't discounting it , but the one by Geoff Parkes. I just mentioned it because it summed up pretty well what I think and even agrees with what many here worry about.
Too many losses piled on top of each other and fans will simply turn away from the game, is the narrative. That may well be the case for many, but it fails to address the obvious point.
At some stage, you have to get better. Rugby at the professional level is a global sport, not a domestic one. Australian rugby can’t hide under the doona and one day in the future, pop its head out, at a World Cup or in a potential champion’s league franchise competition, and somehow hope to be competitive.
The same argument applies to those who would scale back Australia’s professional franchises to two or three, because that matches the number of players up to performing at this level.

All good points about fans turning away and scaling back franchises, as a lot in here have said. Also even agrees with me that Aus can't hide under doona, and simply have to get better.
And I think this is the bit I agree with even more!!
We are seeing now what happens when Australian rugby resides in a different space to the rest of the world with respect to the breakdown. And when it comes up against sides who consistently play at higher speeds and with greater intensity.
The only way to adjust and measure up to that is to embrace the challenge, to the point where the unfamiliar eventually becomes familiar. If there is more pain along the way – and with the opposition hell bent on scoring tries to gain bonus points, there probably will be – then so be it.
That’s the game, professional rugby isn’t easy, and it isn’t easy to turn around a generation of underdevelopment on the run.
The need to sheet blame and express frustration are understandable, but they are easy things to do. Super Rugby trans-Tasman is truth serum for Australian rugby. It needs to be swallowed, not avoided.
Aus rugby I think has regressed in last 2 seasons of playing only itself, I know we had a few bad years a few years back, but Aus teams looked before Covid last year as being very very competitive, because of covid went back to playing only themselves and I believe we seeing result.

 

[Dan54]

Is this the article you are referring to:

https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/05/23/the-rest-of-the-rugby-world-has-left-australia-behind/

It's an excellent article, but I don't think he's saying that the reason the Oz Super Rugby teams are struggling is because their skills have significantly declined due to an insular domestic comp. And nor is he saying that the solution is a full season TT.

He's saying that the reason the Oz Super Rugby teams are struggling is because the refs in Super Rugby AU didn't follow World Rugby’s new breakdown directives, whereas NZ and the rest of the world did.

And so the solution, it seems to me, is to do exactly what NZ did in Super Rugby Aotearoa, and enforce the directives, right?

Yep perhaps that is what he saying, but I think you missed the part where he talks about living in a world of faster speeds and greater intensity. I see where he says hiding head under Doona isn't and playing only same isn't going to help.
I was actually interested to hear the board on Breakdown last night, and although I take it all with a grain of salt, Kirwan mentioned he thought Aus teams problems were facing extra intensity, almost like difference between training and playing , as was pointed out, the feeling was they only really losing in bursts where they seem to find intensity a bit hard, and almost pause to catch their breath? Anyway they also hinted at omething else I agree with Reds/Crusaders match can be almost over thought as Crusaders played a game they won't repeat this year. s Richie Mo said they took it personal as it was top champion from each country. I still believe we do the same in comp next year we will have same discussion at beginning of TT.
There will be a TT comp next year, just I relly hope even if they feel we need the 'everyone needs to win a prize' again, I hope they find a way to not have all one before other, but mix them up during season.

Anyway they all only opinions too, and I suppose many here believe that playing at a lesser speed etc will work, so we still no better off really are we.

 

[hoggy]

No I had read that one, and wasn't discounting it , but the one by Geoff Parkes. I just mentioned it because it summed up pretty well what I think and even agrees with what many here worry about.
Too many losses piled on top of each other and fans will simply turn away from the game, is the narrative. That may well be the case for many, but it fails to address the obvious point.
At some stage, you have to get better. Rugby at the professional level is a global sport, not a domestic one. Australian rugby can’t hide under the doona and one day in the future, pop its head out, at a World Cup or in a potential champion’s league franchise competition, and somehow hope to be competitive.
The same argument applies to those who would scale back Australia’s professional franchises to two or three, because that matches the number of players up to performing at this level.

All good points about fans turning away and scaling back franchises, as a lot in here have said. Also even agrees with me that Aus can't hide under doona, and simply have to get better.
And I think this is the bit I agree with even more!!
We are seeing now what happens when Australian rugby resides in a different space to the rest of the world with respect to the breakdown. And when it comes up against sides who consistently play at higher speeds and with greater intensity.
The only way to adjust and measure up to that is to embrace the challenge, to the point where the unfamiliar eventually becomes familiar. If there is more pain along the way – and with the opposition hell bent on scoring tries to gain bonus points, there probably will be – then so be it.
That’s the game, professional rugby isn’t easy, and it isn’t easy to turn around a generation of underdevelopment on the run.
The need to sheet blame and express frustration are understandable, but they are easy things to do. Super Rugby trans-Tasman is truth serum for Australian rugby. It needs to be swallowed, not avoided.
Aus rugby I think has regressed in last 2 seasons of playing only itself, I know we had a few bad years a few years back, but Aus teams looked before Covid last year as being very very competitive, because of covid went back to playing only themselves and I believe we seeing result.

Geoff Parkes is about the most ardent advocate for TT/Super rugby that exists, he has spent about the last decade advocating for world Super rugby and now its a TT comp with total forecasts of doom and gloom if we don't play the kiwis every single week of the year. Every article he writes has that angle its all beware of the global rugby monster hiding in the cupboard. Its a classic Parkes article where it so neatly lays the blame and avoids certain contradictions.

I mean of course a domestic competition is just hiding under a fucking doona and we all just need to swallow our truth serum, we just need another generation to turn around that underdevelopment. A system he vehemently advocated for, just remember a massive grain of salt when you read them.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Seems to be saying he'd like to keep the current format, but increase the depth of the AU teams by recruiting up to 3 foreign players per team, implement a central contracting system like NZ, and using PE to retain more of our players instead of them going o/s. That could work.

Using PE investment to fund reform programs.

I am fine with the recruit 3 foreign players bit, but we actually have the force recruiting more then 3 foreign players and I actually don’t think that is a bad thing. Ie maybe exemptions should apply for say force, Melbourne and even brumbies that don’t have big local catchment (at least short term). Challenge though is even finding quality foreign players in competitive market. Force been more successful in that regard recently but that was also partly due to the demise of the Jaguars. End of the day imports is just one of a myriad of things that could help to improve things short term. Pathways and better player development, programs in public schools etc continue to be pivotal for long term success.

 

[Dan54]

Using PE investment to fund reform programs.

I am fine with the recruit 3 foreign players bit, but we actually have the force recruiting more then 3 foreign players and I actually don’t think that is a bad thing. Ie maybe exemptions should apply for say force, Melbourne and even brumbies that don’t have big local catchment (at least short term). Challenge though is even finding quality foreign players in competitive market. Force been more successful in that regard recently but that was also partly due to the demise of the Jaguars. End of the day imports is just one of a myriad of things that could help to improve things short term. Pathways and better player development, programs in public schools etc continue to be pivotal for long term success.

I be honest it stunned me to read that Matera, arguably one of best loosies in worls said he wanted to go to the Tahs as he wanted to live in Sydney (f*** knows why) and Tahs weren't interested , so he ended up at Crusaders. I mean the idea of a few foreign players sounds great, but first you have to be able to pay for them, because I buggered if I can see any other reason to turn him down.

 

[eastman]

I be honest it stunned me to read that Matera, arguably one of best loosies in worls said he wanted to go to the Tahs as he wanted to live in Sydney (f*** knows why) and Tahs weren't interested , so he ended up at Crusaders. I mean the idea of a few foreign players sounds great, but first you have to be able to pay for them, because I buggered if I can see any other reason to turn him down.

Dan, the decision to not recruit Matera has been detailed to death but primarily comes down to salary cap management and how to best spend limited amounts of funds. The Waratahs (probably quite rightly) determined that Matera's asking price was too much for a position where they have relatively decent talent/ money locked up for a few years. The opportunity cost of signing Matera is the inability to recruit talent in other positions which management obviously decided were more important!

 

[Dan54]

Dan, the decision to not recruit Matera has been detailed to death but primarily comes down to salary cap management and how to best spend limited amounts of funds. The Waratahs (probably quite rightly) determined that Matera's asking price was too much for a position where they have relatively decent talent/ money locked up for a few years. The opportunity cost of signing Matera is the inability to recruit talent in other positions which management obviously decided were more important!

Yep, but I kind of pointing out how the same thing applies to anyone from overseas (including NZ players), is Aus cap less than NZ, because the Crusaders seemd to be able to do it, and have a peek at their line up, wouldn't be too many low cost players. I like the idea of Aus teams buying in talent from around the world, but they need to be able to afford them.

 

[Joe King]

You genuinely think that's the sole reason for the poor showing?

Nope. I think our main problem is a lack of depth. I'm just clarifying what I think his argument is because I assumed there was some confusion about it. At the same time, I do think it is a very insightful article, and could be a reason why the Australian teams are doing worse than people expected them to.

 

[Rebel man]

Amen!!
Which will happen in next couple of weeks,if not this week. I can see Reds giving Chiefs a bloody hard time, and wouldnot be surprised at all if Blues fold to Brumbies! Certainly can't see my Canes beating either of them and certainly not both!

How I see it when I look at the Rebels they got belted in the first week. It forced them to change moving To'omua to 12 bringing Gordon in at 10 and we looked better week two. We have already evolved and got better and that’s something we never saw in super rugby AU as no side was strong enough to beat us bad enough that we had to look to change.

 

[Joe King]

No I had read that one, and wasn't discounting it , but the one by Geoff Parkes. I just mentioned it because it summed up pretty well what I think and even agrees with what many here worry about.
Too many losses piled on top of each other and fans will simply turn away from the game, is the narrative. That may well be the case for many, but it fails to address the obvious point.
At some stage, you have to get better. Rugby at the professional level is a global sport, not a domestic one. Australian rugby can’t hide under the doona and one day in the future, pop its head out, at a World Cup or in a potential champion’s league franchise competition, and somehow hope to be competitive.
The same argument applies to those who would scale back Australia’s professional franchises to two or three, because that matches the number of players up to performing at this level.

All good points about fans turning away and scaling back franchises, as a lot in here have said. Also even agrees with me that Aus can't hide under doona, and simply have to get better.
And I think this is the bit I agree with even more!!
We are seeing now what happens when Australian rugby resides in a different space to the rest of the world with respect to the breakdown. And when it comes up against sides who consistently play at higher speeds and with greater intensity.
The only way to adjust and measure up to that is to embrace the challenge, to the point where the unfamiliar eventually becomes familiar. If there is more pain along the way – and with the opposition hell bent on scoring tries to gain bonus points, there probably will be – then so be it.
That’s the game, professional rugby isn’t easy, and it isn’t easy to turn around a generation of underdevelopment on the run.
The need to sheet blame and express frustration are understandable, but they are easy things to do. Super Rugby trans-Tasman is truth serum for Australian rugby. It needs to be swallowed, not avoided.
Aus rugby I think has regressed in last 2 seasons of playing only itself, I know we had a few bad years a few years back, but Aus teams looked before Covid last year as being very very competitive, because of covid went back to playing only themselves and I believe we seeing result.

It needs to be remembered that playing a full season TT would not mean playing any more games against NZ teams than the Australian teams are playing already under the current structure of Super Rugby TT following on from Super Rugby AU and Super Rugby Ao.

So keeping the current structure is hardly hiding under a blanket. If anything, it is embracing the challenge.

And if the current format of Super Rugby TT does not improve the Australian teams, then a full season TT will less so.

 

[Rebels3]

It needs to be remembered that playing a full season TT would not mean playing any more games against NZ teams than the Australian teams are playing already under the current structure of Super Rugby TT following on from Super Rugby AU and Super Rugby Ao.

So keeping the current structure is hardly hiding under a blanket. If anything, it is embracing the challenge.

And if the current format of Super Rugby TT does not improve the Australian teams, then a full season TT will less so.

This keeps getting forgotten and shows how little people have actually looked into the detail of what's available.

No matter the format we will play Aus teams x 2 and kiwis x 1. So its either in 1 comp or 2.

2 means we can have an Aus champ, 1 means we wont have one

 

[Dan54]

It needs to be remembered that playing a full season TT would not mean playing any more games against NZ teams than the Australian teams are playing already under the current structure of Super Rugby TT following on from Super Rugby AU and Super Rugby Ao.

So keeping the current structure is hardly hiding under a blanket. If anything, it is embracing the challenge.

And if the current format of Super Rugby TT does not improve the Australian teams, then a full season TT will less so.

Ok, I just think maybe wrongly that playing the way we are at moment is what the peroblem is, continual playing to one style sets a pattern that then needs to be broken down again, where as when every couple of weeks playing a different style helps to keep style a lot more fluid.
There is a reason that Thorn, Rennie etc are keen on mixing it up. I haven't seen many Aus coaches say they think what we do at moment is best for Aus players.

 

[Joe King]

Ok, I just think maybe wrongly that playing the way we are at moment is what the peroblem is, continual playing to one style sets a pattern that then needs to be broken down again, where as when every couple of weeks playing a different style helps to keep style a lot more fluid.
There is a reason that Thorn, Rennie etc are keen on mixing it up. I haven't seen many Aus coaches say they think what we do at moment is best for Aus players.

That was the argument people kept using to keep old Super Rugby.

And look, I agree there is merit in what you're saying, which why I think we need to keep some form of comp between AU and NZ.

I just find it hard to believe that retaining this years format of Super Rugby AU followed by Super Rugby TT would cause the Australian player's skills to dramatically decline in contrast to a full season TT.

Maybe what we're seeing atm has got to do with no Super Rugby TT last year, Super Rugby AU refs not applying world rugby's breakdown directions the way NZ Ao refs did, and AU not having sufficient depth to fill 5 teams against NZ's 5.

I also want to add that playing domestic rugby hasn't had any negative effects on the NZ teams.

 

[Rebels3]

My vague understanding of what's happening in the background is that there is becoming greater focus on supplying more games for the franchises to work with. There is common belief now that Aus players (minus wallabies) aren't been exposed to enough professional rugby

 

[wamberal]

My vague understanding of what's happening in the background is that there is becoming greater focus on supplying more games for the franchises to work with. There is common belief now that Aus players (minus wallabies) aren't been exposed to enough professional rugby

And for all the doom and gloom, it is an irrevocable fact that we learn more from losses than we learn from wins.

 

[dru]

And for all the doom and gloom, it is an irrevocable fact that we learn more from losses than we learn from wins.

Do you honestly think that the Waratahs would be agreeing with this right now?

 

[Rebels3]

My vague understanding of what's happening in the background is that there is becoming greater focus on supplying more games for the franchises to work with. There is common belief now that Aus players (minus wallabies) aren't been exposed to enough professional rugby

To reinforce this point. 27yr old Jack Dempsey is about to play only his 50th cap this weekend for the Tahs. I know he’s had a few injury issues but he’s played less professional matches than Tom Curry who is 5 years younger. Akira Ioane has played twice as many matches (that’s including his M10 fixtures) and is 2 years younger. Fellow injury prone player Ardie Savea is also 27 and has played twice the amount of games. 28yr old PSDT almost twice as much. There is concern around players been savvy enough to manage games and read situations

 

[Rugbynutter39]

My vague understanding of what's happening in the background is that there is becoming greater focus on supplying more games for the franchises to work with. There is common belief now that Aus players (minus wallabies) aren't been exposed to enough professional rugby

And another reason for a domestic plus TT competition.....