Where to for Super Rugby?

[half]

Before I start

Super Rugby out rates the A-League, Super Rugby crowds are better than the A-League, the A-League has been going down faster than a Kings Cross whore. All this makes the SMH article all the more galling.

The kind would say, my predication is proving to be correct.

The less kind would say, were did we go wrong,

The unkind would say, I Told You So,

The cruel would say, well WTF do you have to say now after years of putting !!!**** on ideas expressed.

The A-League alone, not including national teams just signed according to the SMH, a 200 million deal of which 160 cash and 40 million contras, with two A-League matches on 10 and one W-League match on 10. Plus a weekly channel 10 panel show.

NATIONAL DOMESTIC COMPETITIONS JUST F>>>>>>>>>>>>G work

Go to the US and copy their franchise systems, use the MLS it’s the newest and the best for Australian Rugby and build a NATIONAL DOMESTIC COMPETITION.

When FFA sell the National Teams, for whatever they get, it will a combined media deal somewhere between 50 & 70 million a year plus whatever they can sell overseas.

WE out rate, out crowd, and out media space the A-League, and they get double the deal after the FFA sign.

How does the Elton John song go, “””Sorry seems to be the hardest word””

If this does not convince any of the doubting Thomas's then nothing will.

Create a NATIONAL DOMESTIC competition run by the owners with the framework developed by RA.

Its also divided by 12 teams across 27 competition weeks.

The RA deal (yes it includes Wallabies matches) is divided by 5 teams with a top up element to it which is the equivalent of probably another team in salaries. With the amount of fixtures probably been 35% of what the a league deal is offering

By the Holy Mother Mary we have less teams and that means rugby wins.

Mate, they rated about one third of rugbies, they were in free fall.

Networks want content and they want local content.

AFL Australia world champions for ever.

RL, mostly we are the world champions.

Cricket, often world champions.

They all have even cricket now a local domestic competition.

 

[sendit]

NATIONAL DOMESTIC COMPETITIONS JUST F>>>>>>>>>>>>G work

Technically A-League isn't a domestic comp, Wellington are in the comp

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I love all the concern I am reading from over the ditch of concerns RA may not sign up to all in TT (nzru and seems general kiwi rugby preference) vs our growing voice for our domestic competition plus TT. It just makes no sense for Australia to enter full TT and ditch our domestic competition with what is currently on the table and quite frankly NZRU need to be more accomodating / put more on the table for us to even consider doing more then the current one round TT next year, alongside RA efforts to try and make it work eg use of imports etc. Nzru arrogance and past disdain towards oz rugby / RA in not treating us as a partner may be coming back to bite them. I fear for new parties like MP (Moana Pasifika) and the Drua also being treated as mere pawns of nzru interest in this and I agree with others it would be better if in independent body set up now to oversee the design but also the operation of any TT competition.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Technically A-League isn't a domestic comp, Wellington are in the comp

If we added Fiji or Japanese team to super rugby Au I think we would still be calling this our domestic comp.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I love all the concern I am reading from over the ditch of concerns RA may not sign up to all in TT (nzru and seems general kiwi rugby preference) vs our growing voice for our domestic competition plus TT. It just makes no sense for Australia to enter full TT and ditch our domestic competition with what is currently on the table and quite frankly NZRU need to be more accomodating / put more on the table for us to even consider doing more then the current one round TT next year, alongside RA efforts to try and make it work eg use of imports etc. Nzru arrogance and past disdain towards oz rugby / RA in not treating us as a partner may be coming back to bite them. I fear for new parties like MP (Moana Pasifika) and the Drua also being treated as mere pawns of nzru interest in this and I agree with others it would be better if in independent body set up now to oversee the design but also the operation of any TT competition.

I think the only way things can work for us to be all in TT is to have conference system where initial oz conference is super rugby au teams plus say Fiji play initial one (or two) round of games - and super rugby Ao teams plus MP (Moana Pasifika) play one round of games as nz conference where conference winner determined after that I have oz and nz conference winners. But we have those points carry over where then have (one or two) rounds of interconference games where all games count towards finals and who is overall TT winner. That way we keep our domestic and chance to win something whilst also technically having all in TT as all games count towards the latter.

The debate of course is whether we stick with weighting more towards our domestic conference vs more weighting to inter conference games.

 

[hoggy]

I love all the concern I am reading from over the ditch of concerns RA may not sign up to all in TT (nzru and seems general kiwi rugby preference) vs our growing voice for our domestic competition plus TT. It just makes no sense for Australia to enter full TT and ditch our domestic competition with what is currently on the table and quite frankly NZRU need to be more accomodating / put more on the table for us to even consider doing more then the current one round TT next year, alongside RA efforts to try and make it work eg use of imports etc. Nzru arrogance and past disdain towards oz rugby / RA in not treating us as a partner may be coming back to bite them. I fear for new parties like MP (Moana Pasifika) and the Drua also being treated as mere pawns of nzru interest in this and I agree with others it would be better if in independent body set up now to oversee the design but also the operation of any TT competition.

But part of that propaganda push is coming from over here, with lots of articles blaming the just finished AU comp as the reason we are not competitive with the NZ teams, pushing the old living in isolation shit and living under a doona crap.

So yeah add a couple of island teams and NZ in a TT and that just suits NZ fine, while the game here just slowly goes down the toilet.

Look lets just get this straight, all for cross over games and champion league style games against kiwi teams. But the only way the game will grow over here is if Domestic rugby is the forefront of the structure.

You sign up to a full TT, you just continue the slow decline of the game in this country. because you sign away any real chance of penetration or growth with the larger mainstream Australian audience.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

But part of that propaganda push is coming from over here, with lots of articles blaming the just finished AU comp as the reason we are not competitive with the NZ teams, pushing the old living in isolation shit and living under a doona crap.

So yeah add a couple of island teams and NZ in a TT and that just suits NZ fine, while the game here just slowly goes down the toilet.

Look lets just get this straight, all for cross over games and champion league style games against kiwi teams. But the only way the game will grow over here is if Domestic rugby is the forefront of the structure.

You sign up to a full TT, you just continue the slow decline of the game in this country. because you sign away any real chance of penetration in growth with the larger mainstream Australian audience.

I think if we are clever we can do both ie as per our own conference and kiwi conference as per this year but then have the points rollover into TT (the only difference between this years format).

There is debate whether our own conference games should be 1vs 2 rounds which I accept but whatever happens minimum we need to keep some link to domestic conference and have domestic conference champion before linking up with kiwi conference as part 2 of TT.

This way we technically still have our domestic comp (domestic conference winner) and technically have all in TT competition as all games count towards TT finals.

 

[Dan54]

I was talking to a mate (well an aquaintance he a leaguie so )at gold club, and he was laughing at the cunundrum he sees playing out about this.
Admittedly he was just having a bit of a laugh in the league vs rugby thing , and was pointing out that Warriors have been playing NRL since about 1995 or whenever the shit they started, never won the comp , apparently come close once , but generally also rans. He had great delight in telling me the league boys don't look at pulling the plug,don't have supporters calling for mercey etc, but just keep on turning out having a crack every year.
Anyway I told him to get f***ed, and said that was because they were mainly kiwis and most had learnt SOME good habits growing up playing rugby!!
Can I get him deported or something even if he is a kiwi??

 

[Dan54]

I think if we are clever we can do both ie as per our own conference and kiwi conference as per this year but then have the points rollover into TT (the only difference between this years format).

There is debate whether our own conference games should be 1vs 2 rounds which I accept but whatever happens minimum we need to keep some link to domestic conference and have domestic conference champion before linking up with kiwi conference as part 2 of TT.

This way we technically still have our domestic comp (domestic conference winner) and technically have all in TT competition as all games count towards TT finals.

I still think the 2 comps if played similar need to still mix it up, I still see the 2 rounds of Super Au and AO followed by TT will get same results, but if it was done with games there would be less damage done ie teams are playing mixed styles more.
So even 3-4 games, 1-2 TT , followed by 3-4 games of Au or something would be preferable than 8-10 games of one comp then trying to adjust to playing other teams/styles.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I still think the 2 comps if played similar need to still mix it up, I still see the 2 rounds of Super Au and AO followed by TT will get same results, but if it was done with games there would be less damage done ie teams are playing mixed styles more.
So even 3-4 games, 1-2 TT , followed by 3-4 games of Au or something would be preferable than 8-10 games of one comp then trying to adjust to playing other teams/styles.

Not sure as the domestic only games - say reduce super rugby Au to 6 weeks and one round - we want focus on domestic and feel good of local rivalries Au generated last couple of seasons and remove this focus and potential feel good factor interrupting with nz TT games (especially with lopsided beatings).

The other reason is by even doing the short form super rugby au games it is about building the domestic brand with aim that eventually this would be the main game (ie domestic conference where play other conferences in champions league). Hence what I am saying Dan and RA should be thinking this possibility to is we are doing both suoer rugby au and TT because going all in on super rugby au we can’t do yet as got to build the fan base and improve quality, and provide platform to grow and expand (to say 8 teams in our conference). Latter probably a 5 to 10 year plan. I think long term our future has to be an 8 team national competition with champions league league the icing on the cake. I don’t ever see all in TT only as ever our future but more TT a bridging gap to get better, not have to just rely on au (which at this point can’t support 8 teams without too much risk) while keeping ties with nz to eventually shift to more champions league competition with nz.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Not sure as the domestic only games - say reduce super rugby Au to 6 weeks and one round - we want focus on domestic and feel good of local rivalries Au generated last couple of seasons and remove this focus and potential feel good factor interrupting with nz TT games (especially with lopsided beatings).

The other reason is by even doing the short form super rugby au games it is about building the domestic brand with aim that eventually this would be the main game (ie domestic conference where play other conferences in champions league). Hence what I am saying Dan and RA should be thinking this possibility to is we are doing both suoer rugby au and TT because going all in on super rugby au we can’t do yet as got to build the fan base and improve quality, and provide platform to grow and expand (to say 8 teams in our conference). Latter probably a 5 to 10 year plan. I think long term our future has to be an 8 team national competition with champions league league the icing on the cake. I don’t ever see all in TT only as ever our future but more TT a bridging gap to get better, not have to just rely on au (which at this point can’t support 8 teams without too much risk) while keeping ties with nz to eventually shift to more champions league competition with nz.

This is the difference Dan btw as if rugby achieves more success and rebuilds it has the market size to support an 8 team national competition and hence don’t need to rely on nz beyond champions league style product and bledisloe. Whilst nz rugby already is successful in nz but can’t move beyond 5 teams due to small market size and hence need oz teams and TT. Yes nzru actually need oz rugby more then we need them long term (if we get it right). Short term agree both need each other.

 

[Rebels3]

I was talking to a mate (well an aquaintance he a leaguie so )at gold club, and he was laughing at the cunundrum he sees playing out about this.
Admittedly he was just having a bit of a laugh in the league vs rugby thing , and was pointing out that Warriors have been playing NRL since about 1995 or whenever the shit they started, never won the comp , apparently come close once , but generally also rans. He had great delight in telling me the league boys don't look at pulling the plug,don't have supporters calling for mercey etc, but just keep on turning out having a crack every year.
Anyway I told him to get f***ed, and said that was because they were mainly kiwis and most had learnt SOME good habits growing up playing rugby!!
Can I get him deported or something even if he is a kiwi??

The warriors are a completely different situation to Aussie Super Rugby sides. The main factor being that kiwi league fans can support 15 other clubs to get engaged with the game that have kiwis playing in them. If the Hurricanes had 5 Aussies running around and winning titles then these Aussies came back into the national team there would be considerably less issues here. Just like if the Rebels had 3 kiwi internationals running around in their side making them super competitive there would be considerably less issues.

13 of the last 17 players to play for the national team play in other NRL teams

 

[Dan54]

The warriors are a completely different situation to Aussie Super Rugby sides. The main factor being that kiwi league fans can support 15 other clubs to get engaged with the game that have kiwis playing in them. If the Hurricanes had 5 Aussies running around and winning titles then these Aussies came back into the national team there would be considerably less issues here. Just like if the Rebels had 3 kiwi internationals running around in their side making them super competitive there would be considerably less issues.

13 of the last 17 players to play for the national team play in other NRL teams

Bloody hell Rebel, why are you not there while I having a beer with the bugger!!

 

[Dan54]

This is the difference Dan btw as if rugby achieves more success and rebuilds it has the market size to support an 8 team national competition and hence don’t need to rely on nz beyond champions league style product and bledisloe. Whilst nz rugby already is successful in nz but can’t move beyond 5 teams due to small market size and hence need oz teams and TT. Yes nzru actually need oz rugby more then we need them long term (if we get it right). Short term agree both need each other.

I agree so much about the end goal to have 8 competitive teams is bang on RN, then the Champions league becomes a great idea. I also believe having champion's league early is really at moment is only way of doing it as test rugby would be taking players out of it. That could all be helped by a whole new season structure, and I wonder if we will see that happen in our time (or mine anyway)?
My main point is what is happening at moment is a result of only playing own teams, I believed Aus teams (as results showed) had closed gap beginning of last year, and I have a feeling that they will go alright by end of TT. So to get it mixed will improve their strength!

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I agree so much about the end goal to have 8 competitive teams is bang on RN, then the Champions league becomes a great idea. I also believe having champion's league early is really at moment is only way of doing it as test rugby would be taking players out of it. That could all be helped by a whole new season structure, and I wonder if we will see that happen in our time (or mine anyway)?
My main point is what is happening at moment is a result of only playing own teams, I believed Aus teams (as results showed) had closed gap beginning of last year, and I have a feeling that they will go alright by end of TT. So to get it mixed will improve their strength!

Covid really been a blessing for rugby in oz for some ways as many saw the need for our domestic comp for relevance in crowded sports market and super rugby au proved can have a place, but I agree we need to play kiwis but not as often or as much as kiwis perhaps need to play us. But yeh I don’t see 8 teams over night and I agree we need to also play kiwi teams at least like what doing this year with 6 week comp at the minimum to set the bar where we need to get to whilst fixing short term with imports and things like the reforms proposed with PE investment etc to provide the long term sustainable fixes.

So while we need our own domestic competition to have relevance we also need added TT or champions league product to add to point of difference to something afl and league can’t offer. The challenge is getting nzru and RA to the table to design something that works for both given different motivations (including different challenges faced in each of their own home markets which for oz is crowded competitive footy market and kiwis is small country / population that inhibits scale / growth in particular).

 

[Quick Hands]

Excellent analysis as to why a TT super rugby competition is bad for Australian rugby.

Crowd numbers in NZ down by 25% from SRA to the TT version

The Kiwi sides want it (TT competition) for reasons that are not necessarily conducive to the health of Australian rugby. In fact, they want it to avoid a negative - flogging their own players to breaking point every week - and avoiding a negative is not the same as a positive, especially for Australian rugby.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...super-rugby-trans-tasman-20210528-p57vyp.html

For at least the last decade of its existence Super Rugby was a thinly disguised NZRU development system, where kiwi teams got to experience hard, fast, high speed, high intensity games against other kiwi teams, then experience slower SA style rugby against SA teams and have opposed training sessions against the weaker Aussie teams. Perfect as a vehicle for producing an invincible All Black team, but of limited benefit for us.

As everyone here knows, I believe that we can't succeed as a rugby nation without our own domestic pro-league. In terms of a Trans-Tasman competition, the simple arithmetic of player depth would suggest that there should be double the number of Kiwi teams compared to Aussie teams to spread the talent and create some sort of a fair competition. The current TT Super Rugby model is like the NRL running a rugby league Trans-Tasman with an equal number of Aussie and Kiwi teams - it's just nuts.

 

[Adam84]

An expanded Super Rugby-TT is not the vehicle to take Australian rugby forward, im not completely against a TT as it is in the current format, but thats the limit of how far it should go, a short sharp tournament.

Australian Rugby needs to push ahead with it's own domestic league and take control of its own destiny.

 

[hoggy]

An expanded Super Rugby-TT is not the vehicle to take Australian rugby forward, im not completely against a TT as it is in the current format, but thats the limit of how far it should go, a short sharp tournament.

Australian Rugby needs to push ahead with it's own domestic league and take control of its own destiny.

Yep, but all the usual suspects are now all coming out and predicting doom & gloom if we are not involved in a full TT, apparently all our issues are now due to not playing NZ enough last year, and we will only ever get better if we play NZ teams every weekend.

 

[hoggy]

Super Rugby Trans-Tasman 2021 Paul Cully: Rugby Australia and New Zealand Rugby must go their own way (smh.com.au)

A really good article from Paul Cully in the SMH

 

[hoggy]

Super Rugby Trans-Tasman 2021 Paul Cully: Rugby Australia and New Zealand Rugby must go their own way (smh.com.au)

In fact I've just read it twice great article, although slipping in the old Bay of Plenty angle was a bit out there.